To think that maybe therapy doesn’t actually change someone?

[Wonderifitsme]

Prepared to have my arse handed to me if IABU.

background is highly abusive parents, who fucked up the family dynamic. Sister and I not close, but in recent years we have both had therapy (both had abusive marriages) and I felt we had started to become close. VIP to me as only family relationship at all.

sister has long-standing habit of needing all plans to suit her. To a ridiculous extent: she would often want to change plans at thr last minute & be v angry if things couldn’t be adjusted the way she wanted. Since she had kids, the reason for changes was always attributed to DCs ( ‘DD has changed her mind about what she wants to do…etc’).

This got better during therapy, and she seemed to become a bit more considerate,, asking what would suit others. I felt that the behaviour was probably a need for control given our history of abuse, and that she had actually changed. So felt really hopeful.

but. We had planned to meet on Friday for dinner. I had rearranged a load of stuff to make the date. She messaged to say that she needs to cancel ‘because the kids want to put the Xmas tree up.’

i know it’s a small thing but it just hit a nerve. It was like going back in time, to having to walk in eggshells around her. So aibu to feel that therapy hasn’t really changed her, it’s just taught her how to appear considerate?

Rather than worrying about her and her therapy I think you need to focus on you and how you feel.

Do you want to carry on with her doing this, or do you want to communicate your preferences and boundaries?

eg you could make sure you’ve communicated clearly and calmly to get how it makes you feel when she does things like this, and set a consequence that’s within your own control eg ‘I won’t be able to make any arrangements to see if you continue to act like this’.

Nobody changes unless they want to, and they usually don't unless it's more painful to stay the same than to change.

If your sister won't make changes, you'll have to. Or accept the way things are.

I think the purpose of her therapy would have been to help her feel less shame, confusion, anxiety, depression, doubt et cetera.

Her therapy may well have helped her a lot. I don't know if therapy encourages people to do more for other people. Mine didn't. My therapist took me at my word and encouraged me to be kind to myself, do what was right for me.

I'm not excusing your sister though, I stick to arrangements even if it's raining, I feel wrecked, something ''better'' cropped up after I'd confirmed. That is me though. I'm too conscientious. I think that's one of the big five.

I think your sister takes you for granted. Back off a bit for a while. See if she reaches out.

Ok that’s helpful thanks. I feel nervous about having the conversation because she has in past seemed totally unable to see another point of view. Always seems to end up that I am not being flexible or accommodating. Have been times when she has not spoken to me for months.

I thought all this had changed during therapy, but now worried that it hasn’t.

you’re right, though. I need to try.

STBXH had months of therapy. He hasn’t changed. He stopped going because he didn’t feel he was getting anywhere. I believe he is a covert narcissist - if that’s correct then he doesn’t really have any motivation to change. He believes he’s perfect as he is! It’s beyond my control. What was in my control was his relationship with me. I chose to end things and I now “grey rock” him. He’s the same but I feel like a different person away from him.

So therapy can be immensely helpful for some people but it does require a commitment to continue what you’ve learned…but some people aren’t capable or willing to change so no, it doesn’t work for everyone.

I'm surprised a covert narc went for therapy! so unusual. Normally it's th e people who internalise everything going for therapy. My mother believes she's perfect and we have fallen out. I have had therapy. She has just continued to blame me. She would never go for therapy! At one point I'd tried to arrange mediation therapy and at the last minute she said ''im busy but you go, you need it''. I was already having therapy on my own which she didn't know at that point. My therapist had warned me that you do not get water from a dry well (paraphrasing).

Therapy doesn't change people it supports them in how they manage.

I agree.

But... children don't schedule demands. They live in the moment. And the Christmas tree needs to go up. It really does. That's children. Why not ask if you could come along and join in all the fun? Or are you also wallowing in your own fixations? What are your long standing habits? Or is it only her that has "issues".

I was surprised too! He refused while we were married. He tried a couple of times but never did more than a couple of sessions. But yeah, he went. He gained nothing from it 🤷🏻‍♀️ He met someone else within weeks of is splitting and when he told me all I could think was “good! He’s got someone else to moan to now” 😂

The kids are teens - 13 and 15.
the Xmas tree can surely go up Saturday morning or any other time.
there’s a long history of cancelling or changing plans as per op, which has made me feel that the change I thought I had seen in my sister, and become close to her on that basis of, is maybe not real.

I don’t know what my ‘fixations’ are. Yes I do have issues from the abuse & have ongoing therapy for cptsd.

I think your sister has made the wrong decision here and should have kept her commitment to you. Obviously, the children wanting to put the tree up shouldn’t have priority here -to me. But making the wrong decision doesn’t mean therapy isn’t working and hasn’t had an effect. It’s an ongoing process. It doesn’t “change” you. No one always makes the right decisions-and some of those decisions are values based and are personal to each of us. I wonder if you have considered therapy yourself too?

Yes, exactly this. You can't fundamentally change people, just teach them better ways to cope, teach them skills like self reflection etc.

For you sister it may well be that she's able to be more considerate when she's feeling well, but when anxiety/depression/trauma rears it's head she relapses back to her coping mechanisms. I'd imagine Christmas must be a difficult time if you had abusive parents, the happy families stuff must be hard to take, maybe she's struggling?

@Quveas but the Christmas tree doesn't need to go up the same evening the mother has already scheduled plans. It can be done the day before or after or some other time. Teaching kids that their whims will always come first is how you raise spoilt brats that nobody likes.

Therapy for me very much means that it helps to recognise my own harmful patterns and adjust them. It only works long term if you continue to hold yourself accountable for your own behaviour and reactions. I do my very best but often need a "top up" every 9-10 years.

Therapy CAN be absolutely revolutionary and life changing but it takes very hard work and some terrifying introspection and incredible personal scrutiny. Not everybody will be willing or want to carry this on as it is often very very hard. For a lot of people, there is security in taking back on established previous behaviour even if they are very damaging. That's why addicts fail so often, they have to really REALLY want to get over the addiction.

The Christmas tree doesn’t have to go up on Friday when OP and her sister already have plans though, does it?

Most children would be able to cope with the idea of putting up the tree on Thursday night / Saturday morning / any other time that their mum doesn’t have plans.

Thanks all. Am hearing that therapy doesn’t change you.

so that means that my sisters behaviour & this habit of cancelling & not taking responsibility etc is ingrained, and I can’t expect it to change because of the therapy.

which means me having better boundaries, as pp said.

thanks.

No, you aren’t mishearing, if that’s the impression you’ve gained. But boundaries for yourself are important.

therapy for some, is the same as 'finding god' in prison.Some people come out of it worse than before as they are handed excuses for bad behaviour. Not everyone, but I do think you can state to her what you won't really accept and mind yourself.

Therapy isn't a magic spell that will 'fix' your sister into somebody who never makes a selfish choice or cancels a plan, but that doesn't mean it has no effect and the changes it has previously helped her make should be disregarded.

YABU to write off all the times your sister has been more considerate as fake and irrelevant because she did one thing you didn't like. It sounds like her cancelling plans might be something of a sore spot for you given your shared history and that is unfortunate and I sympathise with you, but rescheduling a plan is something that without that history biasing you would be no big deal, so I think you are wrong to take it as some huge negative reflection on her as a person and the progress she has made in therapy.

I agree that if she has generally improved quite a bit she’s just slipped up and it’s to be expected that she won’t be perfect. What was your reaction to it when she text? Did you let her know you’d changed plans and were disappointed? Many of us are guilty of saying it’s fine and secretly seething and damaging the relationship which isn’t a healthy way to be either.

Oh, gosh, a massive mistyping in my post above. I meant you ARE mishearing.