To think in a cold damp climate there is only so much we can possibly change?

[SamBeckettslastleap]

Fuck you Jeremy.

I have layers I have hats, we have covers on the sofas to hide under. I'm not even cold with these measures.

But the house is damp, every morning I am wiping water and mould. I've had to put the heating on to try and stave it off.

Don't tell me to cut down my meagre use when your friends light tennis courts and heat swimming pools.

No one said who should pay for it
Stop making assumptions

What?

Who are these countries that are not seeing huge energy prices? in europe please.

There is.... if you like an auction for electricity prices.... europe wide.
Just as NS gas isn't actually exported and then re imported, its still sold at the relevant rate... just like electricity.

Of course the price of gas is vital atm.

I think the future is renewables but unless the change of ownership also happens, the cost to the consumer will be set by the market... we are also decades away from removing our reliance on renewables e.g Sizewell C probably wont come on stream for another 30 years, the SMR stuff is BS... the Govt is lying, i heard a minister saying they were "rolling them out" the idiot interviewer didn't even ask "where"?

Renewables? again years away before we even get to 50%.

Price for nuclear is stable.... to the wholesale market... what the consumer is charged is another matter... again set by the "market...

France has a more stable energy market because it is now state owned.... we could do similar because unlike most countries, we don't import anything like as much gas as other countries.... so can control the price.... Norway kept a controlling share in its NS industry.

As i said earlier... Russian isn't suddenly going to be welcomed back into the fold, with sanctions lifted.. gas flowing... we will be subject to huge energy price rises for at least a decade and need to be planning accordingly... not coming out with stupid short term universal support.

No one said who should pay for it
Stop making assumptions

But everyone is already paying for it.

Even so, at the minimum £500 to £600 pounds winter fuel allowance, plus the £400 we are all getting. Even with the heating on full blast 24/7 (my DM), I suspect most old folk won't get anywhere near using that. Just my observation though.

Lucky you being able to afford to renovate your home to such a high standard, no wonder you're supportive of the net zero target.

There needs to be a scheme to improve the insulation and energy efficiency of all our housing stock, not just social housing imo.

In the early noughties, there was a national scheme for reduced loft and cavity wall insulation. We got ours done for £150 (2-bed semi), which was a fraction of the real cost, and the remainder was met by the government. It cut our gas consumption by 20% and made it cooler in summer, too.

And any such scheme should also include insulating houses with solid walls. My builder BIL has just done a renovation for a consortium of BTL landlords, where he's lined all the external walls of a Victorian house with thermal boarding. It was expensive (he reckoned it cost approx £6k for a 3-bed semi), but the owners are having all their properties done in preparation for the change in the law re energy efficiency for private rentals in a few years time.

It would be a good idea if mortgage lenders were encouraged or required to give low-interest additional borrowing for home-owners to improve thermal efficiency, too.

@Alexandra2001, you're mixing up electricity and energy again. You seem a bit confused about the market, I'd start by reading that UCL article I linked to.

^There is.... if you like an auction for electricity prices.... europe wide.
Just as NS gas isn't actually exported and then re imported, its still sold at the relevant rate... just like electricity.^

This is incorrect. There is no Europe-wide rate, there is no Europe-wide day-ahead rate or spot price, settlement happens at a national or sub-national level. Have a look here. There is a degree of trading which is based on price flows between interconnected markets. But it isn't a single market

Interconnectors can only ever make up 7GW of our needs, and operate on congestion pricing (differences between market rates at either end of the interconnector.) You can't store electricity at scale currently so that electricity needs to be physically dispatched. So yes, the wholesale price in the country at the other end of the interconnector will have some impact on our wholesale price but only if the electricity at the other end of the pipe is cheaper than the highest UK price or if we're in a supply crisis. It explains why the French drought had an impact on our prices.

The EU has targets for interconnectors (15% by 2030) but that's not the same as a fully interconnected market now. Greater interconnection is likely to even out prices more but could have some negative impacts for us - greater connectivity between Germany and France, for example, at a time when Germany is closing more of its coal plants could drive up the marginal cost of French electricity that we'd want to import.

Different markets also have different input and output costs, including their structure (and ownership) of their transmission and distribution networks and where those costs fall.

Renewables? again years away before we even get to 50%.

Nope.

Price for nuclear is stable.... to the wholesale market... what the consumer is charged is another matter... again set by the "market...

Yes, that's exactly what I said above. The price is (currently) set by the last and therefore most expensive electricity despatched to meet the demand. Everyone then gets that price. That's why nuclear and renewable generators have made windfall profits this year despite the fact that their generating costs haven't increased. There are two ways to solve this - one, less reliance on imported fossil fuels, and two, change the way the market works so that other factors are in play such as location and time of use.

The market is really complicated and parts of the European market are interconnected, but it's not a single market like gas and therefore different countries need different solutions.

This year has been something of a perfect storm - drought affecting the hydroelectric and nuclear dominated countries while gas prices affecting those of us more exposed to that market.

It underlines the advantages of having secure, relatively price-stable generation locally and having an ambition to be a net exporter in a more interconnected future European market, of investing in energy efficiency (the lowest cost electricity is what you don't need to generate in the first place) and developing more flexible grid models with distributed storage.

And none of this really tackles the core issue of this thread, which is our current huge reliance on gas for heat - only the Netherlands is more reliant on gas for heat, I believe.

@Alexandra2001 Renewables? again years away before we even get to 50%.

Renewables currently provide 37% of our electricity and offshore wind alone is expected to grow by 500% in the next ten years. So yes years before we get to 50% but probably only two three.

there is no good reason why UK can't be self sufficient in energy solar panels and wind turbines can be unreliable as not always sunny or windy so are not really the answer but tidal energy and hydroelctric and nuclear are rthe way forward, we have oil and gas in shetland and North sea
obviously the infrastrcuture takes a while but it should be our target to be self sufficient in as much as possible,

@Cottagecheeseisnotcheese tidal and hydroelectric will only ever make a very small percentage of UK output. Nuclear will provide some but energy storage is a key aspect of net zero.

water power technically is already producing about 20% of world's electric and about 90% of renewables is from vatious types of water power
hydroelectric is 12% in Scotland and because we have so many tidal esturaries we have the potential to make tidal power another 20% of our needs
according to this several tidal plant could be built for the cost of one nuclear site

www.energymonitor.ai/tech/renewables/the-mystery-of-the-uks-untapped-tidal-power
i agree storing energy is part of the problem but that is the case however the electric is produced
france derives about 70% of its power from nuclear we could too it is a case of lack of will and investment in infrastructure it is perfectly possible to provide all our energy needs but it needs joined up thinking beyond the count down to next election

How could one elderly lady possibly use 2600£ worth of energy in one winter?

@Cottagecheeseisnotcheese I've written papers and studied low head hydro electricity generation - specifically for estuaries and fast flowing rivers and sadly it really doesn't stack up commercially, technically or environmentally. It seems like a no-brainer but there is a very good reason we are not surrounded by tidal energy generation.

Hydroelectric is different, particularly pumped hydro for energy storage, there is one in South Wales and the Swiss have recently commissioned an exemplar project. But it's not without issues. You need to flood deep vallies and land, this means displacing communities, it also can also hugely disrupt water flow downstream, again impacting communities and ecosystems - sometimes in countries that do not benefit from the power generation itself.

There's no golden bullet.

You r looking at it from a per Q1/2/3/4 basis, sometimes its not even 10%, even the Govt own (very ambitious target) is 100% by 2035, inc Nuclear, so 13 years away.... we cannot rely of solar or wind, unless as they are doing in Spain, they look at storage solutions.

@JassyRadlett All countries are facing massive rises in electricity prices, regardless of how its produced, only France has bucked this... how have they done that?

If the market regulation is at fault, then the question has to be asked "why have all european countries gone into huge debt to protect consumers?"

I just do not see how a nationalised generation/production industry is not a solution.... France has shown it clearly is..... the changes proposed by yourself and by the Govt ie renewables/nuclear/insulation.... are long term and will not help over the next few winters.

My Mum before she died, was paying around 1200 in heating oil and approx 1000 per year in electricity back in the 2000's.

Storage heaters, electric fires, water for baths, it add 's up.

My in-laws, are predicted to have an energy bill of around 3k over the next 12months, walking into their living room, for me, is like a Sauna, they think its chilly and have jumper on.... winter for some people last 6 months plus.

If she isn't on mains gas or in a well insulated house, i can well imagine she will spend 1600 over winter.

fwiw someone i know someone who works from home and has an all electric heating system, is spending around 250 per month, as an avg, more in winter.

We need better targeted support, atm our taxes are subsidising the Russia Embassy and Richi Sunaks swimming pool - anyone care to justify that?

We could have better insulated houses, stop driving SUVs and large cars (and ban the 25% of people who are unfit to drive), do much more for renewables, many other things.

The point about rich people and swimming pools equally applies to government as an employer, and the wasteful use they have of energy.

After that horrendous summer, I will never moan about the cold and damp again. Compared to sitting in Essex traffic in 90 degree heat, this is bliss. I am literally savouring the cold. I can’t wait for a bit of frost and snow.

All countries are facing massive rises in electricity prices, regardless of how its produced, only France has bucked this... how have they done that?

If the market regulation is at fault, then the question has to be asked "why have all european countries gone into huge debt to protect consumers?"

I just do not see how a nationalised generation/production industry is not a solution.... France has shown it clearly is..... the changes proposed by yourself and by the Govt ie renewables/nuclear/insulation.... are long term and will not help over the next few winters.

Can you point to where I've said that a nationalised energy system isn't the answer (or at least part of the solution?) I've pointed out numerous areas where the marketisation of energy assets (eg transmission and distribution) add to wholesale costs in different ways in different countries. Different countries have different generating mixes, and make different political choices. The costs have to fall somewhere, and it's political choice whether its billpayers or taxpayers, just as it's a political choice whether system investment comes from the state or private investment. How have French retail prices stayed low while their wholesale prices rose in answer to the drought over the summer? That's a political choice.

France was in a better position going into the gas crisis as they're much less exposed to gas prices because of their energy mix. They were much more exposed to drought than countries with less reliance on nuclear and hydro. They made political choices about where the costs fall, like every government. Ours has chosen (near) full competition and full cost pass through to consumers.

I'm not advocating any particular system (though I have my own views on that); I've simply been setting out how it currently works in practice, including where you'd got it wrong on how the system actually operates.

Outdated. They have reaffirmed their commitment to coal since they have a lot of domestic sources

The government should do more to help people with making their homes more efficient. That's well documented, we are poor at it

We are all paying more for energy, mostly Putin caused but also covid and government led

But we would be paying less if the first action had taken place

I thought the whole reason your were arguing/replying back to me was because you didn't agree with nationalisation? apologises.

I'm not saying at all that i am some industry expert on energy and its pricing etc... but i think you are wrong on gas and electricity not linked... the only way they cannot be is if we stopped using gas as a generator... but its not an absolute tie either.
however, it seems to me that solutions such as wind, nuclear and insulation are at best limited and at worst many years/decades away... the war in Ukraine and our opposition to Russia will go on for years & we cannot continue to subsidise enrgy consumption.. the markets didn't even like a 2 year scheme and the average price caps are only going to go one way, wrecking our consumer driven economies esp small business... the number of pubs etc i'm seeing close down, is quite frankly shocking, they will never reopen.

So we need an affordable alternative and the only one i can see that works is the nationalisation of UK energy production.... whether you want to argue around the edges of the exact mechanisms used to control electricity prices or who uses more gas.. etc is meaningless... plus if they (the bidding mechanism) artificially increase the price and we need to uncouple from gas prices, one might ask "why wasn't that done years ago?"

It must be doable because its basically what Labour are saying they will do with renewables.

I'm not saying at all that i am some industry expert on energy and its pricing etc... but i think you are wrong on gas and electricity not linked... the only way they cannot be is if we stopped using gas as a generator... but its not an absolute tie either.

I didn't say that there wasn't a link. I said that your statement that the wholesale electricity market operated on a similar pan-Europe basis as the wholesale gas market was incorrect; that's not how wholesale prices are determined. Obviously the degree to which gas is a fuel used in generation will have an impact on wholesale electricity prices, it's one reason we're more exposed to the gas crisis than France is.

So we need an affordable alternative and the only one i can see that works is the nationalisation of UK energy production.... whether you want to argue around the edges of the exact mechanisms used to control electricity prices or who uses more gas.. etc is meaningless... plus if they (the bidding mechanism) artificially increase the price and we need to uncouple from gas prices, one might ask "why wasn't that done years ago?"

Can you explain how nationalisation without changing the generating mix would change the fundamental cost of producing that electricity? The costs have to sit somewhere and a gas-heavy energy mix would still be massively unaffordable, particularly with our reliance on gas for heat.

There could actually be benefits in terms of the profits from cheaper forms of generation - what the generator windfall tax is currently trying to do something about - but the current energy mix means exposure to international markets for both gas and electricity, and those costs (and the risk) need to sit somewhere. And future investment would need to sit on the government balance sheet rather than privately; again not a de facto bad thing but in terms of government debt it's a factor to consider.

I'm not against nationalisation, depending on the model used. I think full privatisation and the current market structure has been pretty disastrous, but just like with Brexit, the challenges of unwinding privatisation are much greater than not just having done it in the first place. I suspect that's why Labour isn't currently suggesting full nationalisation because it would be incredibly expensive and administratively incredibly complex in a market that is currently very fragile.

But we would be paying less if the first action had taken place.

This, 100%. Insulation and energy efficiency should be treated as infrastructure spending.

@JassyRadlett Don't we, over the course of a year, produce over 50% of our own gas? and in total, around 70% of all energy needs?

So if those elements were nationalised, would we, like France, control that price and not be subjected to the bidding of electricity futures, which France isn't, it was before nationalisation...

Until 1982, NS gas and oil was state owned......

No one, so far.. and i don't mean only on here... has addressed the very really prospect of a long term war and hence sanctions on both sides, with Russia.... even if Putin went tomo, a new leader is likely to be even more hardline....

So whether it's nationalisation or something else, the idea we can just keep subsidising electricity and gas to consumers is simply not sustainable.

I do not get the Govt's complacency on this.... their ans so far seems to be Sizewell C, SMR's and off shore wind, even if they could do the job tomo, it doesn't solve getting cheap energy to the consumer with no subsidy & certainly wouldn't help the majority who use gas to heat their homes.

We seem to be totally behind the curve on Hydrogen too, esp out of EU science programs.

Don't we, over the course of a year, produce over 50% of our own gas? and in total, around 70% of all energy needs?

You were talking earlier about nationalising generation, I didn't realise you were also talking about upstream extraction, and not only nationalising but slapping protectionist measures on it. Where would you source the other 50%, and what trade barriers are you putting on our own gas without breaking WTO rules? How are you dealing with the fact that our imports would be subject to retaliatory trade measures? And what's your projection for the long term sustainability of the basin, now all the low-hanging fruit is gone and what's left is more expensive and more difficult to extract? And that's after you've compensated the current licensees of course.

I do not get the Govt's complacency on this.... their ans so far seems to be Sizewell C, SMR's and off shore wind, even if they could do the job tomo, it doesn't solve getting cheap energy to the consumer with no subsidy & certainly wouldn't help the majority who use gas to heat their homes.

Why are you talking about subsidies in relation to new offshore wind and nuclear?

As I've said upthread, our exposure to gas for heating is a real issue. From my research, electrification is the nearest-term solution to this but it's certainly not cost-free or without significant short and mid-term challenges. What's your view?