Sleep training a 5 year old?

[ArtichokeAardvark]

Posting here for traffic. Apologies, but I'm desperate.

I have 2 kids, DS aged nearly 5 and DD nearly 3. My husband, DD and I are all nearly at breaking point because DS wakes up so unbelievably early, and then deliberately wakes up the rest of us. By early, I mean pre 5am (it was 4.45 this morning).

He goes to bed between 7 and 7.30 every evening, and is so exhausted by bedtime that it's never a fight. He then sleeps through no problem but is wide awake long before the dawn. We've tried later bedtimes but it makes no difference to his wake-up time, he's just extra-poisonous all day because he's so tired.

We've tried gro-clocks, blackout blinds, white noise, leaving nightlights on, keeping it pitch black, extra blankets and socks, snacks before bed, leaving a snack in his room in case he's hungry in the night, everything. He knows how to tell the time and that he's not supposed to come out of his room before 6am (6am is the dream, that's how awful it's become). We've put quiet toys (puzzles, colouring, Lego) in his room so that if he does wake early he can play in there but it's backfired because now he wakes even earlier to play. And then rampages through to our room anyway because he wants help with the puzzle or to show his sister his picture. We've bribed with smarties, we've yelled and taken stickers and toys away as punishment. He knows that he's being naughty, and just doesn't care.

I don't know what else to try. Any ideas? He's a complete livewire at the best of times and school have raised his behaviour, I think he's just running on fumes the whole time.

That sounds really tough. The 7-5 sleep is quite long so by 5 he's rested. Is it possible that you could keep him up later at night? I know he's tired at bedtime but making him even more tired might help. Failing that, could you try for a nap in the afternoon after school so that he'll last longer in the evenings? I have a 5 year old too so I'm making direct comparisons.

My DS aged 6 is also an early riser and always has been. No tips really, just solidarity! Nothing has ever really worked with him either so I’m afraid we hand him an iPad when he comes in and he watches cartoons until a more reasonable hour. He doesn’t like being on his own when he wakes up which I suspect is the same with your DS and really, when you think about it, is kind of understandable for a 5/6 year old.

Take him back to bed every time

Don't engage with him.

Just take him back into his room and shut the door.

@Topgub this!! Exactly this. Do not engage and ignore. Gro clock in there and specifically say the night before don't even consider leaving your room until it goes yellow. Start at 6am have and gradually move it later if it works.
Main thing I'd do is not engage whatsoever with that behaviour. People need to be well rested to function.

I’m sure this wouldn’t make it into any parenting books but we give both our DCs the iPad to watch if they wake before 6am; we’ve also tried everything and my younger DC is a very early riser like yours and it’s been the only way to survive.
this may not be any where near being right but with his behaviour at school and being a livewire as you say have you thought about ADHD?

Mine would do this if I let her! Firstly 7-5 is actually a very decent amount of sleep for a 5YO. I’d really stop battling on the wake up time, you can’t make someone stay sleep anyway so it’s literally pointless, but instead get strict with the must stay in his room and not wake the house until 6. He needs toys he can play with by himself without help so not tricky lego or puzzles. Getting up earlier I wouldn’t engage with, straight back to bed without a word. Then mine gets the ipad at 6 if she’s stayed in her room, if she doesn’t then no ipad that day.

DS was like this though the other way around and would go all evening and not go to sleep. Then be up at 7.30am on the dot no matter what. He would also come and wake up 4 times a night on a regular basis. Two times was a good night.

No one believed us over how much he didn't sleep. We tried everything.

He has got better naturally but its still problematic.

He's 8 now and school are (only just) starting to raise questions over Adhd. Which is frustrating but not a surprise.

DS was up til now, really well behaved in class and concentrated well but it's all going down the pan.

I agree. Consistency and a lack of any benefit to getting up is key.
It is also worth looking to see if you can book onto a sleep workshop with CHUMS or similar. My DD1 had terrible sleep issues. We've found lots of little things have contributed to it (eg not enough space to move around and too hot) and over the years we've found a number of things that each improve the situation a bit but make a huge difference when combined (eg reading to herself before bed, wearing an eye mask, plenty of vigorous exercise throughout the week, and a much later bedtime). Many of these we found ourselves through trial and error, but the CHUMS workshop also offered suggestions we hadn't thought of. She has ADHD so her sleep is never going to be amazing, but at least she is now getting enough to function (as are we!).

And it isn't a solution to just accept it as some PPs have suggested, as clearly from the OP's description he isn't coping with the lack of sleep either.

Thank you all for the responses.

We've tried later bedtimes, but it never seems to work - he's still up at 5 and just utterly poisonous all day. He went to bed at past 9pm this weekend as we went to a fireworks display, and he'd had swimming that afternoon too. I thought he'd be utterly knackered and was looking forward to a micro-lie in, but no joy. Still up at 5.15 and Sunday was utterly hellish.

We've tried walking him back to bed too but he invariably throws a tantrum that then wakes up his sister. Maybe I need to try that again though, see if I can send DH and DD to his parents for a few nights while I deal with my little monster.

Interesting that some of you have also raised ADHD. His nursery raised it a year or so ago and we did look into it. My aunt works with kids on the autism spectrum so I invited her to spend a day with us. She didn't think he had ADHD, but did say he is hyper intelligent for his age (school have also said this) and is lousy at entertaining himself, gets bored very very easily. School don't think it's ADHD as when he's engaged he has no problems concentrating and will stick at one task for ages. He is however a massive attention seeker and acts up for laughs and occasionally does things to deliberately shock (class clown scenario). I might pursue another opinion though.

It's so bloody hard isn't it!! He was a nightmare sleeper as a baby too, never napped well. I though school would help as he'd be tired every day, but nope.

It might be worth speaking to some other 'experts' on ADHD. Hyperfocus can be as much a trait as the inability to focus (and both traits can be present in the same individual). The fact it has been dismissed based on his ability to hyperfocus 'for ages' suggests to me that school know less than they realise about it! Also, an inability to self-entertain and getting bored easily were things the doctor picked up during DD's diagnosis. I'm not saying they are wrong and it is ADHD, but they are using the wrong reasons to dismiss the idea.
FWIW school couldn't see DD's ADHD or ASD for years. About 9 months ago her traits became much more obvious in school, and although they admitted something was going on, they were still unconvinced it was ADHD or ASD (they thought it was dyslexia even though she passed the dyslexia screening plus a bit socially immature). We had already put her forward for private assessment, and school agreed to support this thankfully. It turns out there was plenty of evidence in what the school sent that school just hadn't picked up on. Now we have a diagnosis and school have read the report with all her traits clearly laid out, they can finally 'see' it (TBF you can't unsee it once you realise, but she does mask well and can 'pass' as a shy NT person well enough for short periods).

Yes, on the putting them back to bed front, it needs to be done consistently despite the frequency or protestations. It will take more than a night or two to break the habit and you absolutely cannot crack as then they know if they scream loud enough/keep getting up eventually they'll get their way. It is crap when you're doing it as the entire household is woken, but it is for everybody's longer term benefit.

She didn't think he had ADHD, but did say he is hyper intelligent for his age (school have also said this) and is lousy at entertaining himself, gets bored very very easily. School don't think it's ADHD as when he's engaged he has no problems concentrating and will stick at one task for ages.

DS is 8. He hasn't had really had concentration issues as such. He will happily watch Brian Cox for 90mins without problems. He can read a book down the pub with noisy adults easily. Out of his class he was the only boy who I saw sitting still for any length of time on school trips. He is very clever and was exceeding on a number of subjects at the end of yr2 which highlight his underlying intelligence but he's just starting to 'coast' and under perform in maths and English compared with that.

He has always been hyperactive and doesn't sleep but is exceptionally well behaved.

He doesn't match the normal stereotypes of adhd.

School haven't flagged problems until this year. He's been referred this week. He's ticking a large number of boxes as in 'needs to be taken seriously' level.

His thing is his intelligence and interest allows him to hyper focus and thats one reason we've got to yr3 without it being flagged.

One of his issues is he is hitting all targets. He has the ability to get exceeding across the board (but this is also an incentive for the school - it wouldn't be the same if solidly average)

DH followed a similar pattern and is super clever and clearly adhd despite no diagnosis. No one who knows us is remotely surprised by DS getting adhd flags suddenly.

I had a conversation with a friend over adhd and intelligence this weekend. She's a teacher. I said I thought it was unusual. She said it was more common than you'd think.

So dont take those comments as a definitive. Things may become more apparent later down the line. Intelligence and interest means it's easier to mask adhd.

It sounds like he's getting a decent night's sleep and some children just need a bit less than others. The issue is that he wakes everyone else. At 5, most children are old enough not to do this. I'd get strict about this - cup of milk downstairs in the fridge, reward chart if he plays quietly/watches the tablet until at least 6.30 and consequences if he wakes the rest of you up before then.

I'd seek out a professional assessment for ADHD rather than these anecdotes because they're displaying some ignorance about ADHD. It's a myth (that I wish would die a death!!) that ADHD affects your ability to concentrate on anything, what it tends to mean is that the person can't easily concentrate on things that don't interest them. Someone with ADHD can concentrate on things that they find engaging, often "too much" to the detriment of everything else! And what is engaging can change rapidly, so it often looks like "They concentrate when they want to" which is not actually true.

Parenting wise it might help to look at things like Ross Greene where the focus is not on persuading him to do what you want, but more about critically evaluating all aspects in order to find a mutually acceptable solution, even if it doesn't look like you might have imagined.

I also like the Lyndsey Hookway book "Still Awake" although it doesn't have any magic solutions, it's a bit more realistic for older children. Contains some of the "mutually acceptable solution" stuff too.

Unconventional suggestion - let him watch TV or play on a phone/tablet? I know it seems like a crazy idea, but if he's waking up anyway, it's probably engaging enough to prevent him from seeking help with it and therefore he wouldn't bother other family members. If he genuinely has lower sleep needs then there might be nothing you can actually do to get him to sleep longer and it might be that what you need to prioritise is everybody else getting enough sleep.

Or medication - melatonin? In theory melatonin wouldn't prevent early waking but should help with falling asleep, if the reason the child can't fall asleep is that they aren't producing enough naturally (which is common in ADHD and autism).

It’s an early wake, it’s hard on the whole family, you’re exhausted. I get that.
But please stop calling your poor child poisonous.

Poisonous is quite a common expression to mean grumpy, isn't it? I don't think it means anything derogatory in the context OP has used it.

He's having 10 hours straight sleep, which won't help.
It will be monstrous for the first week or 2, but id move dinner an hour later (or 30 mins if you can't face an hour), and bedtime an hour later.
My early riser got a sunshine alarm clock.
Light came on at 5.30, and that was the earliest he could get out of bed. Had to be quiet and let everyone else sleep until 6am, when the alarm went off (!).
We had to enforce the 5.30 to get out of bed bit because I found him happily watching TV at 4am one morning.....
He's now a teen, and happily gets up at 7am every morning.
We also made sure we focused on letting everyone else sleep in the mornings rather than him having to sleep.

It could be weirdly that he’s over tired and hitting deep sleep too quickly so waking earlier. Could you try an earlier bedtime? Or a nap and then bedtime?

Except he isn't getting a decent night's sleep because he's a tired mess the next day...

Have you tried consistently inching bedtime later? Think about how you deal with clock change or jetlag, it takes a few weeks for it to work, not just a one-off. Try 8-8.30 for at least two weeks and then reassess. 7-7.30 would be considered a very early bedtime in many parts of the world!

I have a 5am early riser, who also has ADHD. It’s exhausting but that’s his wake up time. Nowadays I tend to hand the iPad over and go back to bed for an hour.

Another here - but thankfully it's not every morning. DS is 4 and if he comes down at 5 he will willingly climb in and go back to sleep, but if it's after 6 he refuses to sleep so gets very quiet Netflix lying between us until 6.30.

Sundays are the absolute worst. Nothing (cafés, shops, soft play) is open for FIVE HOURS when they get up at 5.

I don't know what to suggest. Some children are just by nature early risers but that changes as they get older; teens don't like getting up but you are a long way off that.

Mine used to get up but would slide in between us in bed and settle down, cosily sleeping until later.

Do try to keep him up a bit later, even an hour's less sleep would help. He does need to realise that other people don't like being woken so early.

Good luck.

If all else fails try calling the National sleep helpline.

My daughter, 7, started having sleeping issues due to separation anxiety- they were super helpful and supportive.

Think it might be time for a trip to the GP OP

Saw the date after drafting my response so maybe you’ve sold it by now!

Re ADHD, school should know that the ability to concentrate doesn’t rule out ADHD. ‘When he’s engaged he has no problems focusing and will stick to one task for ages’ Hello!!! Whist there’s some overlap, ADHD and Autism are very different and the ability to focus / hyperfocus on subjects of interest is actually one of the key attributes of ADHD. Furthermore (speaking as someone with an adult diagnosis) ironically it’s also one of the main behaviours that mask the condition, resulting in late / non-diagnosis. I’m not suggesting DS has it, but living with undiagnosed ADHD is hell, so best to be sure for his sake (and yours) by getting a full psychiatric evaluation.

Not engaging with DS before 6am. I agree with what others have said, but to add an IMHO, it’s imperative to address this now so the whole family can have a decent life, cuz a 5 yr old who’s allowed to control the whole family’s patten of waking is likely to continue to exercise and expand control in ways you’ve yet to imagine. I’ve seen the disastrous results of this first hand, but also strategies that can help; all kids can learn boundaries, even kids with ADHD.

Have you tried dopamine-inducing rewards that visibly build up week by week? Eg a prominently displayed star chart, with a green star for each day he stays quiet till sunrise light (presented with great ceremony and praise👏), a silver star for 7 consecutive green (resulting in lavish praise and small but special reward involving your attention and his active participation - eg extra mummy/daddy time with a favourite book or game - as opposed to extra (passive) iPad time or (addictive) sweets). 4 consecutive weeks of silver = a gold star and bigger, more tangible and experiential reward (eg going with you to a store (experiential) and choosing a toy (tangible) up to a pre-defined £/$ value). Set bar lower if necessary (eg starting with 2 consecutive mornings), but you get my drift.

This helps teach the strategy of small achievements building up to bigger rewards ☺️ A similar chart for a habit or behaviour you’d like to encourage in DD will make it ‘equal’, and competing to shine can be a great motivator. If DS does have ADHD, he may well be especially responsive to such dopamine-inducing games and (especially if ADHD), the visibility of his progress is very important.

Good luck 🤞