Why are nursery workers so poorly paid, seeing as fees are so extortionate ?

[gluo]

Where does it all go, seriously ?

Childcare costs in this country are incredibly high especially compared to other similar countries. This isn’t the fault of the nurseries, this is a political choice. This is the fault of the government not the private nurseries. They have chosen to fund childcare in a very limited way which is less than the funding in most other developed counties.

What the government does fund (the 3 hours for over 3s and some under 2s) is underfunded which further increases fees for parents who use nursery before age 3 and pay for extra hours on top of the free ones.

I really don’t think the nurseries are the ones at fault here. If anything the staff should be paid more to aid retention but under the current system people just wouldn’t be able to afford it.

And so far as the people who own or run businesses earning good wages well they should! In the same way anyone else running a business who has the necessary skills, training and experience to run and plan a business well should.

While the fees make sense, to some people they do seem extortionate. As someone here pointed out £60-£70 per day works out to about £7 per hour, if a parent is on minimum wage that leaves them with £2.50 per hour during the time their child is at nursery. Which means that some people literally cannot afford to work, which is why some children get the nursery funding from 2 years (which then also has to be subsidised by fee paying parents) which drives up the cost for other children, meaning more people will find that they're struggling to afford the fees and so on. Where I live there are no school nursery's, only private ones. Early years are woefully neglected by the government and this is unlikely to change sadly because its all too easy to blame the lower earners and those on benefits for needing subsidised spaces.

Unfortunately schools (state at least) increasingly can’t afford to run pre schools either. The only way to make the numbers add up is to overcharge for the under 3s and holiday care to make up the shortfall for the ‘free hours’.

Womens Hour had a good special episode on this at the end of October. The government know perfectly well that they aren’t paying enough for the free hours although it took a freedom of information request to get the information from the Department for Education.

(Episode on BBC Sounds)

There's similar issues up here with funding - devolved issue - where FOI requests have shown that council nurseries are being funded at a higher level than private. Means they can pay higher wages which makes it even harder.

Another specific difference here, I think - managers are required to have or be working towards a specific degree level qualification. It's starting to cause real problems as lots of people who are in childcare (and excellent) aren't willing to do it so it's becoming increasing hard to find managers and wages are going up fast. I know of several after school clubs having to close down because they can't get managers - here it's the same rules re qualifications for asc and nursery.

They are some of the most profitable of businesses. Many private owners hold the properties in elaborate pension schemes and trusts, all sorts of tax loopholes are used meanwhile they pay staff pittance. It is shameful.

They are some of the most profitable of businesses. Many private owners hold the properties in elaborate pension schemes and trusts, all sorts of tax loopholes are used meanwhile they pay staff pittance

Absolute horseshit. For nurseries at least.

What is a nursery place - £60/day?

I get that it is unaffordable but I don't think that it is extortionate - it is just not properly subsidised by the government as in many European countries (and as it would have been if the Tories had not taken over in 2010).

My local nursery was £92 a day 4 yrs ago. I used a childminder instead at £65 a day

but agree it's the lack of subsidies

I think it’s scandalous how poorly nursery staff are paid. Apparently in Scandi countries they are trained and paid akin to psychologists, given the essential need for high quality attuned care in the 0-3 period. In this country we get it woefully wrong.

The fees are reasonable when you look at them against costs. The general problem is how wages have stagnated in Britain's economy. Temps don't take home anymore than when I left uni for eg.

It’s about £6 an hour for a child. That needs to cover all the staffing, premises, activities, food, insurances, and so on.

it is very expensive. But that’s because the cost is not subsidised to make it affordable for parents. Not because nurseries are amazing cash cows.

Look on Companies house - will reveal true level of income and profits

Same as care homes. Greed.

And yes. British wages are atrociously low. In my industry they are less than half what they would be in North America. Exactly the same job (and things like full health insurance are part of the US pay package too, so it’s not compensating for that). I know because I’ve been looking at totally remote, we don’t care where you are, jobs from us firms. 2-3 times my current salary (for less seniority!) is just standard.

There was a thread recently where the contention was that minimum wage should be enough to live on. But actually it’s ridiculous that so many adults (with years of experience) are in roles paid at or close to minimum wage in this country. Minimum wage should be a bare minimum, mostly paid to brand new to working people, not such a standard thing. We have a terrible low wage economy in this country.

What is a nursery place - £60/day?

Depends where you are. I was offered a place in a London nursery at £100 a day and that was 8 years ago. Christ knows what it cites now.

Your typical small nursery won't be submitting P&L, so you're by default only sering the big guys there.

Are there some big groups doing well - sure. But they're not the norm at all. Many nurseries are struggling. And it's also blooming hard to set up new ones so the more that fail the worse it will get.

I looked it up and national average is £54/day.

London will be higher of course, but their property costs will be far higher.

We are a family run business with 2 care homes and I can assure you, there are no obscure funding arrangements or greedy owners.The cost are high, because of staffing cost and cost associated with the buildings. Also, our energy costs are not capped and other costs are also increasing. 50% of our income goes straight back out for staffing costs. I would assume this is similar for childcare providers even if they don’t provide 24hr care.
Please stop slating care homes and nurseries and tarring us all with the same brush.

It’s £85 a day here, not in London.

I've recently taken on a part time job in a care home just to bump up income. I'm sure fees are high but the place costs a bomb to run. I'm pretty sure there's as many staff in most days as residents. Not just carers but housekeeping, laundry, maintenance, chef/ kitchen team/ manager/admin, nurse, physio. It's super warm despite windows being open a bit for ventilation. I dread to think of the heating costs.

They're not extortionate. J oay £44 a day for 9 hours. £4.89 an hour. That covers:

• 1/3 of a practitioner's wage in the baby room (1:3),
• a portion of the 'spare' practitioner they have in that room.
• A portion of the managers wage
• A portion of the chefs wage
• A portion of the cleaners wage
• Rent/ mortgage
• Utilities
• Maintenance
• Registration fees
• Council fees
• Toys

I totally agree nursery workers are massively underpaid (as are a lot of caregivers) but when you start to break it down you can understand how small independent nurseries cannot raise their fees any higher.

North East Nursery - £58 a day or £230 for a full time week. Ds2 does full time Monday to Friday 8:15-515 (though they are open 730-6)
so 10.5 hours @ £46 a day as we pay the FT fees - that's £4.60 an hour to provide one of my most precious possessions with heat, warmth, food, care and then all of the consumables - paint, wipes, pens, glitter, sand. When Ds1 started at nursery I was on Min wage (he's 6.5 now) I now earn double that, DH salary has increased too so it has been more than worth it for us to pay these fees.

Where did you go, seriously?

At least engage on your own thread OP

Childcare is a high cost for families, yes, but it's not "extortionate". In fact, when you think about it, childcare is very very cheap in absolute terms - most settings are somewhere between £5.50-£8 per hour per child which really isn't that much when you consider the costs need to include all the things highlighted on this thread - staff, training, buildings/facilities including heating, gas, electric etc, food, toys, maintenance, cleaning etc etc etc.

The problem is that even at £6 an hour, a child in 30-40 hours of childcare will quickly rack up the costs.

All childcare should be tax free in my opinion.