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Original poster

Sexual assaults on submarines

47 replies

Springdafs · 29/10/2022 08:11

I'm listening to the news this morning, reporting on many reports of sexual assaults, by men on women, on submarines. These include 'rape lists ' (the order women will be raped in the event of imminent disaster) and sexual assaults on sleeping women by higher ranked men. The comments given by the official are;
Its difficult as people are living cheek by jowl
We don't have a mature society placing people into submarines
Women should speak up about assaults.

Not ONCE is it suggested that men should just not behave so appallingly. AIBU to think this should be the no 1 comment on this?

OP posts:
TheForests · 29/10/2022 08:12

That's awful

KangarooKenny · 29/10/2022 08:20

I wonder if the men were assaulted before women were allowed on board.

pinkstripeycat · 29/10/2022 08:21

sec

pinkstripeycat · 29/10/2022 08:23

Sexual assaults on sailors by other sailors was always a thing.
I’ve heard men sometimes use the excuse that needing to have sex is a function they can’t control!!!

mpsw · 29/10/2022 08:26

KangarooKenny · 29/10/2022 08:20

I wonder if the men were assaulted before women were allowed on board.

Short answer, yes

(Naval traditions: rum sodomy and the lash)

There is a strict "no touching" rule on both ships and subs, but that doesn't mean it's not broken. But there are also times when the book is thrown at the offender

mycatisannoying · 29/10/2022 08:27

As an aside, did anyone see the Netflix account of a Danish inventor who sexually assaulted and killed a woman on board his submarine?
You couldn't make it up Sad

Brefugee · 29/10/2022 08:28

Women who are in or have been the armed forces are all rolling their eyes at this and saying "we have been warning about this kind of shit since the dawn of time"

Singleandproud · 29/10/2022 08:29

This is one of the reasons women were kept iff submarines for so long. As men can't control themselves perhaps we need separate Male and Female submarines. Or, more likely what they'll do is kick the women off again and make them male only.

There was similar talk of the same being true of off shore oil rigs.

Radiatorvalves · 29/10/2022 08:30

Adm Sir Ben Key, the First Sea Lord, called the claims "abhorrent", adding "sexual harassment has no place in the Royal Navy and will not be tolerated".

clearly an investigation is underway. I await the outcome with interest… the main whistleblower was dismissed earlier this year for serious misconduct.

I am not prejudging this, but the mail has an agenda here. I was in the Navy in the 90s and had a friend who was seriously harassed. She was pilloried and ended up on the front page of the Mail.

Fireballxl5 · 29/10/2022 08:34

I'm not surprised.
We all know that many men are rapey bastards.
Women should be able to live anywhere in peace but realistically a large metal can under the sea is not a good place to mix the sexes.

Original poster
Springdafs · 29/10/2022 08:36

I'm sure these things did and do happen to men. Sadly (for me) I'm not at all surprised these things take place, in the forces and outside them.

What shocked me was the radio 4 coverage that this is to be blamed on circumstances and society. No mention that men could chose to behave differently in the first place!

OP posts:
TheaBrandt · 29/10/2022 08:38

Should be all women or massive majority women crew for 5 years. If you can’t play nicely we will take away your toys.

Original poster
Springdafs · 29/10/2022 08:40

@Radiatorvalves sorry to hear about your friend. I await the report with interest too. It would be nice if responsibility was placed where it belongs

OP posts:
Byfleet · 29/10/2022 08:41

I don’t doubt that men are also victims of sexual assault too.

What almost all acts of rape and sexual assault have in common though is that they are carried out by men.

Original poster
Springdafs · 29/10/2022 08:43

@TheaBrandt interesting idea like a social experiment. Would have to make sure that the men were not exclusively in positions of authority.

OP posts:
EnterFunnyNameHere · 29/10/2022 08:50

Submarines aside, it's a totally known phenomenon for senior military positions to rape more junior people (men and women, but lets face it, probably more commonly women now they are allowed in the forces). Its called "command rape" in the US at least.

Description here: www.counterpunch.org/2006/07/08/command-rape/

I came across it on a crime podcast (redhanded ep 164) because it has also in many cases led to murder when those raped by more senior members plan to report it. I don't know how up to date it was, but it said something like 20% females who enlist are serially assaulted.

That said, given rape crisis report something like 25% women have been sexually assaulted in England maybe its still safer to enlist (ha bloody ha).

But of course the messaging is not going to be to come down on male perpetrators like a tonne of bricks. Same as outside the military - women are told to keep themselves safe, as if it is their responsibility alone to prevent men raping them, rather than men being told in no uncertain terms not to rape people. It has ever been thus.

green82 · 29/10/2022 08:50

Whilst the blame is squarely on the men, I thought the point about society was important and was glad it was made, too many people pretend we live in an "equal" society and that these things aren't prolific, we as women know we are not safe. This isn't happening on submarines because they're unusual circumstances, it's happening everywhere, because we live a society with toxic masculinity.

We can't fix the submarine situation without digging deeper than that into society. That's the point I think was being made, and I agree with it. As well has finding the perpetrators culpable.

Original poster
Springdafs · 29/10/2022 09:00

I hear what you're saying @green82 about society not being equal and toxic masculinity. I was too focused on the 'WHAT ABOUT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE FUCKING MEN' in my head to consider this point properly!!

OP posts:
green82 · 29/10/2022 09:17

@Springdafs I know what you mean, and agree we should never lose sight of that nor make excuses for them.

gogohmm · 29/10/2022 09:25

The report is factual, it's implicit that it's wrong. The fact that a report was commissioned means they are taking it seriously.

The navy (can't speak for the other services) is actively trying to change the culture to be inclusive to women, been impressed so far

Johnsonsbabies · 29/10/2022 09:32

I used to have a job that involved attending different RN warships at different bases and generally how you were treated stemmed from the senior officers - if they were sarcastic and belittling then the crew would follow suite, but if they were helpful and positive then the work visit would generally be an ok experience.

I had a horrible bullying experience on one vessel and wasn’t surprised when it was in the news that a cocaine stash was found on it.

Behaviour comes from the top down.

LakieLady · 29/10/2022 09:38

The RN spokesman's response was positively weak, imo.

I can see that it's part of a wider social problem, but as an employer the RN has a duty of care here. There should be a designated person on every sub, ship, base who anyone experiencing sexual harrassment or assault can go to, and they should be trained not only in how to deal with it, but in how to foster a climate in which it is recognised that this behaviour is not acceptable. It needs a cultural change.

A change in social attitudes is needed, for sure, but if enough organisations worked on changing attitudes within, that change would eventually spread out to society as a whole.

TheForests · 29/10/2022 09:40

As an aside. What do they do in a submarine for weeks on end? Just curious

notimagain · 29/10/2022 09:59

TheForests · 29/10/2022 09:40

As an aside. What do they do in a submarine for weeks on end? Just curious

Good question...I suspect if you get any answers they will be a bit generic and lacking in fine detail..🤐

...and I'm afraid there-in lies the problem with some of the fixes that have been suggested upthread. Given the state of the world at the moment and the role of at least some of the toys boats you're not going to see a sudden transition to all female or majority female crews, or other social experiments.

NotAKnowitall · 29/10/2022 10:06

As a veteran who recently left the military, I can confirm it's exactly the same in the army. The culture in the military has normalised sexual harassment, sexual assualt, bullying, sexism etc. When women are a minority everywhere you go, men act like a pack of animals when they see one. It's locker room talk (much like trump's "grab her by the pussy" comments) but everywhere, all the time and directed at you and, apparently, it's funnier the more they overstep the line. It's harassment and assault thrown out as jokes. They're "just having a laugh".

If you raise an issue with superiors like "he groped me/he came into my room when I was asleep/he's telling me he wants to f me while I'm trying to do my job" etc you're met with "well you shouldn't have led him on/done xyz" or "he's just having a laugh". Rarely do things progress and it's a disgrace. It's not being stuck on a boat that's the problem, it's that it's normalised across the whole of the armed forces as just a bit of banter.

A friend is still serving and she told me that there's a man on her camp who has to be escorted around by another soldier at all times because he's had FIVE sexual assault allegations against him.