To ask what grades a pupil designated as low attaining, is expected to achieve if educated in a Selective or Grammar school.

[Challenger5]

In- conventional thinking this should not make any sense, as a low attaining pupil should not in theory be educated in a Grammar School or the likes of Dame Alice Owens.

However, because I am a bit of geek, I have browsed the Dept of Education Performance tables. I have thus noted that in a year's Cohort of both my DD's Grammar Schools there are 4 and 5 girls respectively assigned as low attaining on entry. The first question being how do low attaining pupil's pass the 11+ even with heavy tutoring. The second question being what GCSE grades would be expected from these low attaining pupils. I know DD1 who is a high attainer in year 10 is expected 10 GCSE grades 7-9 and DD2 year 9 who was classed in the upper end of the middle attainment at 11 should be aiming for grades 6 and 7 for her GCSE's.

The third question is it must be quite an -unpleasant experience to know as a pupil you are destined to be the lowest attaining student in the year.

My DH was considered “low attaining” in primary school. He, to the absolute disbelief of his primary, passed the 11+ and went to grammar school. He now has a PhD in literal rocket science and teaches physics-and also has diagnoses of severe dyslexia, ASD and ADHD. I suspect that many of those “low attainers” are like him.

Or they could have another language as their first language?

Low/medium/high attainers are based on KS2 SATS if I remember correctly.

I would suggest that a child that got into grammar school (so passed the 11+) is not actually a low attainer but simply had a bad day on their SATS (or was ill, or had a difficult ongoing family situation distracting them ...). They would probably be expected to actually get high grades like everyone else, and anything that is auto-generated (probably a 4) as a target they will probably exceed (which then looks good for the school in Progress 8).

An example of how statistics don't make much sense viewed as a small snapshot!

Dd didn't do KS2 SATs as her dad had just died unexpectedly a couple of days before they started. The school tried to push us for her to still do them and if she had, she'd have done terribly as she was in shock and couldn't focus. She's in top sets though and if we'd lived I'm a grammar area she'd have likely got in. Some of the low attaining pupils could have been similar?

The third question is it must be quite an -unpleasant experience to know as a pupil you are destined to be the lowest attaining student in the year.

No-one is 'destined' for anything. Being at a selective school isn't a Golden Ticket. There will be children who never fulfil their potential because they lack motivation, are overconfident that they can get by without working or are overwhelmed by mh issues, for example. Likewise there are children who may not have stellar academic credentials for one reason or another, but who work hard, are focussed, have people who believe in them and who will end up with better results than some of the 'chosen ones'.

Great answer Jennie. You perfectly highlight how children with ASD and other difficulties like Dyslexia, Dyspraxia and Irlen's etc are highly intelligent. It is also quite obvious that your son was not 'low attaining' and thus in a Grammar School environment soared.

I have had to fight all the time for DD2 who is adopted for her EHCP based around her Autism, this especially after she passed the 11+. The argument espoused being a girl who passes the 11+ only requires support rather than a full on EHCP. The school are supportive, mainly because DD2 adopted dad is Head of English there. I suspect another child with similar issues may not have had the same support.

Her adopted dad - so is that your husband / partner ?

DD was put on bottom set for French in a selective grammar school. She still got an A. At GCSE. these things are relative.

Sorry,Yes my Husband

What KS2 stats score count as low attainment, mid attainment and high attainment? Is there somewhere I can input my child's SATs scores that will tell me what their target GCSE results are?

Why are you even doing this? So you can compare the kids’ rubbish results compared to your own child’s stellar ones?

Tbh I’m not convinced even KS2 SATs are a particularly good indication of GCSE success. I passed my 11+ with the top results in my primary school but did not enjoy Grammar school and did very badly in my exams and left at 16. Studied later in life though, but needed to find a subject I really enjoyed in order to succeed.

There is no set pass rate for most grammar schools. They accept the top x amount of children. One year this may be a high performing cohort and the next a lower performing group.

One year a score of 75 might not be enough whilst another year 40 might allow a child to qualify as one of the last intake.

If lower performing children were accepted it is because they were the best of the children who applied and qualified.

Why would you want to do this? Secondary schools use different methods and will tell you your child's target based on their own method. We always treated them as akin to random number generators tbh.

Low <100
Medium =100-109
High >=110

Bright children can be low attained for all sorts of reasons. These are the sorts of children who would be able to pass the 11 plus.

Do you mean Dame Alice Owen in Potters Bar? It's not completely selective. The entrance criteria gives a higher ranking to any children with an EHCP plan, looked after children, 22 children who live closest to the school, siblings and 10 places on musical ability.

One of my dc passed 8 gcses at grades 4-6 (so I'd say average) but in years 7-9 due to physical health, dyslexia and asd was predicted grades 1-3 so would have been classed as a failing student.
Students can (with the right support) turn their education around. There's lots of things that can affect a child's attainment at any given time, with the right measures some of these can be mitigated.
I have dc currently at secondary school where the whole year are split into 1/3's based on academics alone (started due to covid but carried on). I can see how it would be easier to teach like this but do wonder how the children react to being in the different 1/3s?

Not sure which terminology was used in the 80s, but as a pupil at a grammar - we certainly knew who the “low-attainers” were.

came as an awful shock to learn hoi polloi are considerably more dense than even the “lowest attaining” grammar school pupil pre tutoring.

Wow how rude, my hoi polloi son went to a comp, has never had any tutoring and got six 9's three 8's and a 7.

Totally agree with this @watcherintherye . I have one who went to GS but was never particularly academic and wasn't terribly keen on university. He has a good job which he enjoys a lot and is moving up the ladder but which doesn't require a degree. Then I have one who didn't get close to passing the 11+ but was hard-working, focused and determined who now has a first-class Masters in a highly academic STEM subject from a top-2 university and is currently applying for PhDs.

I want to do this to give me a vague gauge of what my child's targeted grades might be.
If a high attainer, would they then be given a target of grades 7-9 at GCSE?

@3WildOnes

Yes at my school anyway they would typically have 7-9 targets for GCSE.

It really doesn't matter what their targets are! The school should try to bring the best out of their child, regardless of how they did in KS2 SATS. From experience, I can say that if your child has targets that are high, then this can put a lot of pressure on them.

Looking at statistics for low attaining pupils in Comprehensives or Secondary Modern schools show on average less than 15% achieve level 5 in English/Maths. Though, very small in numbers the percentage of low attainers in Grammar schools attaining grade 5 in English/Maths must be significantly higher than 15%. I understand because the numbers of low attainers in Grammar schools are tiny, analysis could be difficult due to the outlier nature.