Is BREXIT responsible for NHS staff shortages?

[PinkPlantCase]

I was just reading about hospital staff shortages. I understand that one of the things pushing people out is poor working conditions and stagnating pay but how much of an impact has brexit had on staffing?

Was the staffing problem less acute before brexit?

YANBU - brexit had a big impact on staffing

YABU - brexit didn’t make much difference

Yes and no. Staff are leaving in droves due to the reasons you state and Brexit means there is a smaller pool to replace them.

I work on NHS recruitment and there were relatively few European staff compared to British, African and Asian. Also, since most (not all) NHS occupations are on visa list, there isn't a block on Europeans working in the NHS.

The real issues are burn-out or exhaustion following COVID, poor pay rates here compared to other jobs, or compared to clinical pay in the US, Australia etc.

There is a huge overseas recruitment effort going on at the moment but recruiting people faster than existing staff leave is difficult.

Nurses and other staff badly need a pay rise, they need assurances they will be supported through long covid, and they need reinforcements.

Yes

Just checked for some stats and EU staff are most represented in London NHS trusts.

In London region, of total NHS staff turnover, European staff make up 11% of those who left during FY 21-22. 74% were British, 8% Asian and 5% African.

Reasons for leaving aren't stated but I guess will be a mix of exhaustion, pay, Brexit and other.

Oh not another one....

Why don't you just do a Blankety Blank thread instead and we can all join in.

Brexit is responsible for "Blank"

You could even offer a Blankety Blank Cheque book and pen!! 😂

Brexit contributed by the fact that it's not financially feasible to live in the UK and EU staff can have decent life in their own countries too without having to emigrate. I can see how Poland's changed in the past few years. Cars are the same as in the UK, lifestyle is similar, houses are nice etc. There's no point for medical staff to come to the UK for money anymore.

In my area Brexit made little difference, preBrexit we had a large influx of East European patients many of whom didn't speak English particularly the Romanians so they needed double appointments and that made the NHS more strained. Few NHS staff came from the EU, nurses were more likely to be from the Phillipines. We just haven't trained enough doctors and nurses and the pension and tax system encourages doctors to leave the NHS in their mid 50s.

A mixture of less staff to pick from and a benifit system where you can lead a good life on JSA

Also, since most (not all) NHS occupations are on visa list, there isn't a block on Europeans working in the NHS.

I don't understand what you mean by visa list. Do you mean the skilled worker visa shortage occupations list? If so, whilst Europeans may well be eligible using that route, there are many more hoops for them to jump through now than there were pre brexit. That visa replaced the tier 2 visa, and you still need sponsorship, salary guarantee etc and it's only for 5 years. Tier 2 visa applications were a lengthy, expensive, tedious process, I don't imagine anything has changed with its replacement and it will be putting people from the EU off.

Do you honestly think that someone with a medical or nursing degree is going to be happy by settling for a life on JSA? I think they would feel like a total failure

I'm in London and have noticed fewer European nurses.

I know foreign healthcare worker who are now going back to their home countries after working in the UK for a few years. They have just had enough of being here. It's too expensive and not fun anymore.

I also know experience British healthcare workers who have/are emigrating permanently, who are going off abroad for a short period of time, those who have reduced their hours significantly after working years full-time, those who have left their profession who are not retirement age and those who have retired early. The last two groups of people are doing something else.

It’s worth looking at other countries. Aus has shortages globalhealtheducation.com/au/categories/nursing/australia-heathcare-skills-shortage-problem

Others too. Covid impacted many sectors and has resulted in shortages

Not in my area. We never had a massive amount of European staff in the first place.

What’s really causing a recruitment nightmare here, is housing. I live in a tourist hotspot, most landlords have moved to Air BnB-type short term/holiday lets so there is nowhere for staff to live when we do manage to recruit them.

If you work for the NHS whether you are a nurse, doctor, dentist, healthcare assistant, admin assistant or accountant then you have the skills and qualifications to get a job in the private sector either in the same role or something completely different.

I should add my nearest private hospital has had a banner up trying to recruit staff since before Covid.

Haha well I know I’m bias because I do think that brexit is a big reason behind the struggles we have at the moment. But I don’t have much to do with healthcare so I don’t know if it has had much impact.

Hence starting this thread to ask people who know much more than me!

But the vast majority of us don’t want to work in the private sector. I’ve done it briefly and as an agency nurse and friends who do do not report better working conditions in fact often worse and for pay we are usually paid the same band structure as the NHS. Also the ethos of the private sector doesn’t sit comfortably with most of us. The private sector in the UK does not usually = better just different (as I said above I’ve worked in both) and the majority of the stuff nurses would care for is fairly routine so many nurses would not find it interesting enough.
Ive noticed a few less European nurses since Brexit and it’s not helping the situation but it’s more complicated than that, working conditions particularly on the acute side are pretty poor and many are burnt out and looking for either alternative employment or employment in areas considered “easier or less stressful”.

Lack of housing is an interesting point! I imagine the same could be said for transport in other areas.

I looked at retraining in healthcare and I didn't bother because you need a lot of qualifications that cost £££, the pay afterwards is shit plus you have to work a lot of shifts/antisocial hours which makes childcare a nightmare. The pay is just too low for what is being asked.

However, I think Brexit has made an impact in some areas, even if nurses can get a visa you have to think about the impact on their partner and children. Pre Brexit anyone from the EU could live here no worries, now if you came here as a nurse there's no guarantee that you, your partner or your children would have a long term future here. This is the same for all sectors of course not just healthcare.

I think lack of housing is an interesting point I know an NHS nurse who is living in rented accommodation in a major UK city but now he has a partner want to move out of his overpriced broom cupboard to somewhere larger but cannot find anywhere even decent 1/2 they can afford. Airbnb’s are definitely contributing to the shortage. Then add in other factors like having to pay to park your car when at work £2.50 a day for 3 days a week then £12.50 you park more than 3 days a week where I work, burn out, anti social hours and not being able to give the care you want in the way you want and staff will inevitably start wondering if there are better and easier ways of earning a living.

Oh and another big factor refusing any kind of flexible working.

It's certainly impacting social care in my area, which impacts the NHS

People are leaving because of the poor pay and conditions. In the news this morning:

news.sky.com/story/nurses-are-working-the-equivalent-of-one-day-a-week-for-free-research-says-12731952

I've worked in the NHS for 42 years and have never been so overworked and underpaid. It really spiralled out of control during covid and is not back to normal. Droves of people have left as a result of their experiences and we simply cannot hire anyone, we have hired several new staff from abroad, they work for us for 6 months and then leave because the conditions are better in their own countries.

Tougher language testing was blamed by some recruitment agencies:

hclworkforce.com/blog/survey-says-ielts-bigger-problem-eu-nurses-brexit/
www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2017/06/language-tests-hit-eu-nursing-recruitment-crisis-harder-brexit

More nurses moving into aesthetic nursing could be a factor??

'I'm swapping nursing for botox'

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40481308

It's certainly impacting social care in my area, which impacts the NHS

There was a nursing home manager speaking to LBC in the summer who said she couldn't persuade any of her employees to work more than 16 hours a week because it would affect their benefits.