Neighbour refuses to use front door

[Quellyza]

Hi, I was researching online, and came across this thread (first time poster here)www.mumsnet.com/talk/property/2993195-Neighbour-Dispute-re-Right-of-Access. I really do sympathise with the OP, is it really that unreasonable to ask the neighbours to use the front door where possible?.

Every person I have spoken to about this has agreed, this access is so close to our house and so intrusive, that it should only be used for things such as wheelie bins, lawnmowers, garbage bags, etc... which is fine, but not for constant foot traffic all day every day.

If I didn't know any better I would say the house in the above link IS my house, we bought this property not knowing about the right of access, - yes, it is written in the deed 'right of use of the marked path by way of foot only', we missed it, we had no idea about it, had we of known we would not of bought the house, we even mentioned to the previous owners that we would be blocking up the back gate and they didn't tell us anything - we later found out they had moved because of this access (according to hearsay)

The first time we were made aware of anything like it, was when the neighbour screamed at my Nephew to move his motorbike as it was blocking their path. in our minds we felt that our neighbour shouldn't be asking us to move our things on our property, but ok, this time, trying to be nice, we will move it, but please use your front door from now on... (they ignored that)
We spoke to solicitors, paid another solicitor to try and see if we could do something as this wasn't made clear to us, apparently there isn't. It is stated - we should have seen it, in the masses of paperwork we were sent.

That was 18 months ago, since then, there has been a lot going on, including police visits, verbal abuse (from them to us) They have had a warning, we have always kept the pathway clear and moved out of their way even if hubby was up a ladder fixing something he would have to climb down, move the ladder, let them pass and climb up (we are renovating the house) even though they can use their front door. The stupid and frustrating thing is, they literally have to walk past their own front door to get to the path that leads to their driveway!

Now they DO use their front door if and when its very bad weather or to take in a grocery delivery or something, so they have no reason to not use it.

I once managed to ask why they wont use the front door, they said it was because they were Irish, and its disrespectful to use it. (I responded by saying this is England and its disrespectful to walk around our house 20 times a day)

We are in a group of 4 houses so lets say no1 and no4 are end terraces, no2 and 3 have rights of access around the one directly connected. If we are 1 - and no.2 uses it... then 3 can use no. 4's right?,,, but they don't, they wouldn't dream of it... they think its impolite. we have erected a second gate, will be erecting a 3rd and if that doesn't slow them down, possibly a 4th. (these are NOT locked and are just there as a small sort of warning for us that the neighbours are coming) I have personal anxiety because of the verbal abuse and the police have managed to talk them out of attempt of communication towards us.(honestly I think they are all deaf as all they do is scream at each other)

Honestly the other neighbours are fed up with them too, 22yr old and her boyfriend, other rather vulgar dosser types hanging out round front and every time they want a drink or the loo or whatever they walk around our house into theirs, they litter on the bank, (we are not in a town, we are in a rural area). I have been quite surprised by them popping up around the corner, almost bumped into them while walking out my back door, once they were walking past and the gobby 22yr old started screaming at me, I couldn't even continue doing what I was doing as she was blocking my path. (I just kept saying please go home please go home)

Anyway, leaving this here, I will keep an eye I'm just, I have had enough, I'm stressed and I'm done with these vulgar immoral people being allowed to be like this.

@LoveMyCats1 that's the part I find hard to believe - that it was sold without warning.
In small Northern villages/rural towns this set up in old terraces (workers cottages) is common. It's obvious when viewing - typically fences in back gardens will be waist height, all with gates at the same interval along the fence. Well worn paths (that often run right past the back windows) I can't see how the OP could view and not ask about a gate to the neighbours garden, or think to check before buying!
Other common set ups in these areas will be shared courtyard spaces as the terraces are built in a square or U shape.

Properties in areas like these are advertised with 'private garden' as a plus feature, it isn't assumed that gardens will be private, just in the same way you wouldn't assume a flat has a private garden - and as mentioned properties with fully private gardens are considerably more expensive.

But there will be a second gate between her and the neighbours' garden that should've raised questions.

I do feel sorry for the OP, they sound like awkward neighbours and it does feel quite intrusive when you're not used to people wandering past your windows daily, but I don't think she's in a position to change how they've been using their legal access for years.

If they are No3 and you are No1 do they actually have the right to use your path? Are you saying they walk across the back of 1 and 2 to get to their house? What do the deeds say?

🙈 yes I can't really remember I'm kind of commenting from the old post, there was something where it wasn't necessarily obvious initially. It is hard to believe I know!

Surely number 2 are across the road and number 3 is next door to number 1

I do have to say, I don't actually remember anyone every expressly telling me about the access through my garden when I bought, and there's nothing on the deeds diagram (presumably it is written in there somewhere) so can see if someone's not familiar with the idea how it can be unexpected.

Not always. I have several relatives and friends whose roads don't follow the usual odds and evens arrangement.

We bought our first home years ago and this was a feature, but a feature for just us on a long road! The houses had front gardens and over the years residents had built walls to define boundaries, keep in children, dogs etc. We saw these and thought little of it as residents had private gated access to their homes.

But our house had been empty for some time and had a very low boundary fence. Suddenly two women started using my front garden as a short cut, they stepped over the fence and I watched them actually clamber over a higher wall into another garden. When challenged, they told me they had a right of way so I asked then why build a wall and put up a fence. I said I would be putting up a higher fence to keep our dog in.

I worked for my solicitor and he told me to just put up the fence and it was then down to ndn to get it removed. She initially went mad. So I told her that I accepted the ROW but I had the same rights and would be walking my dog (doberman) through her front garden each day. I would take down the fence if she went round all the houses on the street and told them they had to take down their walls and fences. I heard nothing after that.

Some people just want to prove a point op and I am afraid you have neighbours who are doing just that.

Where we moved to (East Midlands) just about all our neighbours use their back door even though they have to literally walk past their front door and down the side of their house to use their back door.

Some have fences across the side so they also have to go through a gate (one neighbour has to unlock that gate every time!).

Me and DH find it really weird and we use our front door. Quite a few neighbours have commented on that believe it or not.

We have put a high fence and gate across the end of the back garden and the gate is padlocked. Neighbours, some delivery drivers and the scrap men used to walk into the back garden and knock on the back door which really annoyed me. I think it is rude.

Sure...

?

@Augend23 - so sorry! Fat thumbs! I meant to tag the op@Quellyza but you were underneath when I clicked the @ sign!!

op has made a TAAT which isn’t allowed. Some mods are more flexible with the rules than others.

@Quellyza please can you draw a diagram? I cannot visualise it

Wow - A LOT of response, Thankyou all very much - I must say my 'This is England ' comment was a basic fact, not meant to be horrible, but believe me I had a lot worse from him prior to me saying that, and it was a bit reactive I admit.

We have tried to ask the owners of next door if we can move the access at our expense, they said no, oh btw the houses are all social housing, we are the only ones who own ours.

The gate and fence at the back is 6ft high, it is not apparent that the pathway is an easement, it just looks like the foundations of our house tbh. When I lived in Sheffield in a mid Terrace there was no back access, so we thought it was the same affair, also, this is the country, there are not many houses here, just a river and lots of fields... maybe in a town I would of been more wary.

We did say a lot to everyone concerned when buying what our plans were... to attach a garage and extend the house out the back etc etc, all things we are unable to do due to this easement. You would think someone would pipe up, our family and everyone I show this to thinks its silly, and that the neighbours are silly for not just using their front door, trust me, none of them work, they smoke weed in their car out front, always turning up in random cars... I understand the legality of it, its just... wrong, I feel it is wrong, I can honestly say if I lived there I would not be abusing this access in the same way.

We have tried with the owners, we offered giving up shared land out front, we have tried to appeal to their better nature, but its one of those massive companies that really don't look at it the same way.

I shall find a diagram

Another thing is the back gate opens directly by our bathroom window where the shower is, half the window has been blocked up frosted glass only does so much. (we missed that till we got the windows replaced) Yes how can you miss that but it has been very cleverly done so that it looks like a single pane on the inside and double on the outside.

I rented somewhere once where I had a back door that opened into a shared alley between mine and house to the left. Then my yard and garden was directly behind the house. My adjoined neighbour to the right had built his extension right up to the boundary and his door opened right onto my yard.

It was ok ish because he was nice but it was awkward letting dog out or my son to play because if he left his back door open, they would be able to go into his house. He couldn't access his own garden without going through my yard and his mates all used the back door too.

It was literally a right of access to put his bin out.

I have no idea why he wouldn't have wanted his house to have a back door into his own garden. Really odd.

So my own house didn't give direct route to my garden but neighbours did have direct access.

It would have been horrendous if he was unpleasant. Housing is bizarre sometimes.

Yellow arrow access alley to back of houses. Blue doty back door. Purple dash neighbour back door. Yellow line my boundary.

so, the green path around our house is the bit they can use on our land, the blue is the bit we can use on theirs. the Red is our boundary.
You see where the blue and green touch the house together is where both our front doors are.

You are on a hiding to nothing OP. I say this as a barrister who does a lot of cases involving easements.

If your solicitor didn’t tell you about the right of way you might have a claim in negligence against them.

But you can’t just do away with an easement because you want to for your own benefit so you can build an extension, or because you think the neighbours ought to use their front doors because it’s the “done thing” or it inconveniences you. They don’t have to accept your offer of something different in exchange. Unless there is a restriction on the purpose of the easement (eg you can only use it to move the bins in and out) they are also not “abusing the easement” by going in and out whenever they want to. They are exercising their rights. If anything, your obstruction of the easement by leaving stuff in the way puts you at risk of a claim.

As for the suggestion that the neighbours should have told you that your plans to extend wouldn’t be possible because of the easement - get a grip. They are under no obligation to do so. That’s why you have solicitors.

It’s completely true.
I don’t know how you expect me to prove it. My parents house still has the front door there but it is boarded up on the inside.
I can post a picture if their front door with the sign saying ‘please use other door’ if you like.

ooh good idea google maps, here, so red square is our back door and bathroom, blue squares are our windows (they look in) Yellow square is outdoor seating area, green path is where they walk and the little arrow is thier front door, FYI our front door we fit coat and shoe rack there without going into front room aswell.

I would move. Terrible set up.

Not surprised you are fed up.

Is their front where the white car is, why would you bother walking all the way round

I'm irish and have always used the front door. Using the back door is mainly a rural thing here. Sounds like you've just moved next to a pack of assholes.

I’m not sure why your are bringing their lifestyle choices up, it’s simply nothing to do with your issue, the fact is they legally and rightfully are using the shared access, how or why they use it is irrelevant and none of your business.

The English comment is simply absurd and idiotic, it’s not a fact it’s racism!!!

That does look pretty intrusive, mine's really only across the back door/kitchen window and I like my neighbours

I feel your pain. Our neighbour has an access down the side of our house and his front door is on a different street. He and his visitors constantly use the side access by cutting across our drive and I’m utterly sick of it. I usually have to park obstructively and put my bins in the gap between my car and the wall to deter them.