This may be unpopular - but what about the squeezed middle?

[AndroidUsername]

They are talking about raising taxes on the average person now. Which will really effect lower middle class families who are already feeling the pinch due to increases in cost of food, gas and electic, increasing childcare costs and rent or morgage increases. They are going to increase pensions and benefits with inflation but lots of middle class earners are not having their wages increased with inflation but will now have their taxes increased. What about help for the middle class, especially lower middle class and working class who earn slightly to much to qualify for any help but will now stuggle with all these increases.

I am not going to respond to the sweary unevidenced rant, but for those interested in how the wealthy reduce their tax with the full support of the government, here's a starter for 10:
www.oxfam.org/en/inequality-and-poverty-hidden-costs-tax-dodging#:~:text=Through%20a%20complex%20and%20loosely,the%20heart%20of%20this%20system.
www.theguardian.com/news/2022/sep/27/super-rich-uk-non-doms-avoiding-32bn-in-tax-each-year-report-finds
www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/wealthy-uk-tax-cost-rate-capital-gains-income-tax-a9566211.html
leftfootforward.org/2022/04/prof-prem-sikka-tax-legislation-in-the-uk-benefits-the-interests-of-the-rich/
www.taxjustice.uk/taxing-wealth.html

Tax cuts are not just about reductions in the rate of income tax. In fact, reductions in the rate of income tax generally have little impact at all on government income. This is because the likes of most of us don't have enough money, even collectively, to give much to the government anyway. So cuts in income tax broadly are pocket change to the government. Governments have many other taxes, and many other ways of cutting taxes, and by enabling those, they effectively can raise or cut taxes and target those cuts. The vast majority of them are aimed at cutting taxes for the extermely wealthy - both individuals and corporations - and this "tax avoidance" is worth £billions every year. There is a reason why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and government polices are at the root of it.

The issue in this country (and I don't think we are alone in it) is evidenced on this thread. Too many people are intent upon finding some group to blame - whether that is the sick, the disabled, or benefit claimants - and then justifying why whatever they have is "deserved" or that they "deserve more", rather than placing the blame firmly where it stands, with government policy on economics. And I don't care whether the party in government is blue, red or polka-dotted - economics is not a "one-size fits all" area, and needs intelligent debate and approaches, not vitriol and scapegoating.

But that is probably beyond us, if this thread is anything to go by.

Yep it’s those middle earners who were the ones supporting the hospitalised and entertainment sectors (who in turn supported the lower paid) who are going to be the worst hit, but this then hits the people who were supported by their spending. We’re currently in holiday, previously we would have eaten out most lunches and dinners, now we are SC and having one dinner out this week. Entertainment is free stuff, not going to the theatre etc

having to ditch this discretionary spend might seem a first world problem, and for us it is absolutely, but for the people (often on minimum wage) who work in these sectors it’s going to be the difference between employment and unemployment

I recall even MN - a business that is run predominantly digitally, and I would have thought a great example in how to work from home - claimed to have furloughed around 90% of their staff (maybe be misremembering the figure, but it was high).

Are you kidding me? What a disgrace. @MNHQ should be ashamed if that’s the case.

People who are obviously just not as bright as @Worriedddd

Of course, it couldn't be that a whole bunch of people didn't have the luxury of stopping to think about repayment; rather had to focus on survival- nah, it must just have been that they thought it was free

I work in a school and we are haemorrhaging experienced support staff. They are all leaving to work in the private sector because they simply cannot afford to stay. It's not right that people who are working full-time are lying awake at night worrying about how they're going to pay for essentials, but an increasing number of our staff are in that position. We've always given food bank vouchers to parents who are struggling, but for the first time I'm now having to give these to school staff too. Competition for support staff roles in schools used to be fierce, but now we're struggling to fill vacancies because people cannot manage on what schools can afford to pay them. It is a really worrying time.

Those raising the cost of furlough and lockdown overall I assume are saying that the costs of lockdown were far greater than the benefits of doing so. At the time, as we know, nobody did a cost benefit analysis and lockdowns didn’t do much to ‘save lives’ as everyone was hysterically screaming at the time. We should have had a targeted approach to covid, protecting the most vulnerable, while everyone else carried on. You can’t just shut down everything. Beyond the initial 3 months to get a grip on things, every lockdown thereafter was a cost we could never afford.

I disagree.

The biggest problems the U.K. faces right now is that blinkin 50/50 split that seems to mean we can’t work together in anything, to survive this we all need to pull together and move in from that.

I’d get it whatever with means testing but shared welfare means it’s in the interests of all to keep the system working- there are many less generous than you who would merrily turn in the less fortunate if they didn’t have some investment. You see it in social media all the time anyway, the hate to those who need help.

Besides if you’re taking the cash fora pension you have to return it, and the way the system is designed means you couldn’t pay those who need it any other way- the money is paid straight out to current retired people rather than saved for them, so if the only people claiming were those who could not pay much or anything in it would sink rapidly.

rather had to focus on survival what are you talking about? I wasn’t at all worried about my survival as throughout the entire thing it was crystal clear I was never at any real risk. According to the experts. I had covid the first time before the first lockdown started.

Come on really how many people were gloating about sitting in their gardens in the new hot tub? Some were struggling many were not

100% correct.

And the offer of changing that system, reducing the inequality gap and closing the grip the 1% have on that equality gap was resolutely rejected by the electorate in 2019. People didn't want a party who believed in collectivism - it was shouted down as loony lefties being 'dangerous' because they wanted to give people who they thought were 'undeserving' their money and they did not want to share. It was in the oppositions campaign slogan 'many/few' and it was rejected. People thought it would be better to elect an individualist who believed in neo liberalism and the everyman for himself ideology. Johnson is the living embodiment of it. Everyone knew and knows what he is and they like it. What did people expect to happen?

I think the problem for the government is people notice if they feel less financially secure, even if that means moving from a very comfortable to an averagely comfortable position, it’s a relative shift that they notice. Someone might be ok missing their holiday and stopping eating out for a year but when they realise that downshift is permanent they will start to ask more questions. And a lot of those in the “middle” are used to feeling that they aren’t completely ignored by the political classes.

The lockdowns were a waste of time and a criminal waste of money. They should never have happened.

Except practically the whole world did them.

Look at the state of the NHs now. How much worse would it have been without lockdown?

Middle-class people get salaries, not wages. I am fed up with this nonsense.

All the money wasted on testing and furlough could have been invested in the NHS.

Many people have got used to spending their salaries with no savings, also massive lifestyle inflation. I'm a bit frugal I buy second hand things , have a Peugeot 108 and live in a very modest house. I do have a cleaner though , it will be a bit crap but we will be fine because we didn't let the lifestyle inflation kick in too much.

If one more person on here says that they "paid into!!" their pension, I am going to scream.

It's a defined benefit pension, not a defined contribution pension. Do people not understand how this works? You are not getting your pension from a pot that you "paid into" (not the state pension, that is).

I consider our family the middle ground. We aren't on a low income but not high earner, definitely not middle class either. We are screwed already and we don't have any luxuries, our mortgage is due for renewal - worried sick tbh.

Anyone who works full time and earns around the average salary (£31k outside London) or less will feel the squeeze. Especially parents with toddlers. They aren’t eligible to free/heavily subsided childcare fees for under 3s.

We need our Personal Allowance (tax free) to increase. Maybe £15k+ rather than £12k. Childcare should be heavily subsidised for full time workers with children who are under 3.

No but they should have told the public the reality of printing lots of money. We can hand out this money but things will get very painful for UK PLC going forward

But it wasn't just the QE, it was lockdown. I worked so no furlough & saved a considerable sum.

They simply don't have the money to bail everyone out now, interest rates are going up including the national debt. Taxes will need to probably rise

This was coming regardless, look at wage growth & productivity just before covid.

Many people have got used to spending their salaries with no savings

Because emergency interest rates don't encourage saving

I think there is a lot of fear around about dropping out of the middle class. Surely being middle class is more than just having disposable income?

I love the arrogant patronising poster using Guardian & Independent links as ‘evidence’ 😂 I think most of us are well aware the super rich avoid tax with some fairly obvious loopholes in our system but when making statements like ‘we’ve had tax cuts for a decade’ you should probably make it clearer you’re not talking about 99% of the population, who have not had any tax cuts, only increases.

Well our Ponzi scheme of an economy relies on people buying stuff and accessing services so if they squeeze too hard then presumably they can kiss goodbye to economic growth.

Surely being middle class is more than just having disposable income?

Uh huh, people mean middle income then. Class is different.