To ask about animal welfare on organic farms?

[FourForYouGlenCocoYouGoGlenCoco]

I’ve eaten meat and fish all my life, and most of the time, I wouldn’t really think about where it came from and how it was raised. Mainly because I didn’t want to (because it’s mostly horrible). I’m not proud of this. There’s lots of evidence out there to show both sides of the story - animals being treated really well (which of course costs farmers a lot, and the cost is then passed onto consumers) and animals being treated horribly.

I’d like to carry on eating meat and fish, and am eating less of it but buying the highest welfare meat and fish I can.

I’ve recently started buying organic meat from veg and meat box companies rather than from supermarkets. There are some very well known ones - I don’t want to say their names out on here in case anyone thinks I’m using this thread to promote them, but one of them is based in Devon and has ‘River’ in its name, and the other has the initials A and C. There are of course lots of others out there!

Obviously, buying organic meat from these companies is very expensive, but they seem to have very good welfare standards. They show videos of animals living at the farms that provide them with meat, and there’s nothing I’ve found online that suggests the animals are mistreated or that they are living in horrible conditions. At least, for their chicken farms, the birds all seem to live a properly free-range life where they can behave naturally. The most cynical part of me thinks, okay, this could just be all for show, but I don’t think it is.

My question is - does anyone know what animal welfare standards are like in general at organic independent farms? I would think it’s better than most (if not all) supermarkets, but would be interested to hear from anyone who knows more. Thank you!

That's simply not true. Welfare standards are much higher. We have organic cows and hens and quite apart from the feed, there are strict welfare rules, eg, much lower density of stock or poultry per square metre. Zero grazing is not allowed (ie keeping cows inside all year round), more nest poxes and perches for poultry, and many more welfare-based rules.

This isn't true either. Poultry don't have to be indoor houses yet, except in some places like Norfolk. That said, I'm sure a nationwide lockdown will be announced any day now.

I live on the Cornwall/Devon border and there is a lot of livestock farming here. I buy all my meat locally, most of it from friends who raise poultry, lamb and pigs, but also from farm shops and the local food hub.

Welfare standards are high and it's easier to keep to this on smaller family-run farms. We are also lucky to have a few small local abattoirs still operating too.

Farmers do care about the welfare of their animals and are proud of looking after them well and keeping them healthy, all this while being unsentimental about them.

I am able to pay more for good quality local fish, meat and dairy and I hardly ever go into a supermarket now. Interestingly I have found that although I pay more for produce (a lot more in some cases) overall I spend much less per week than when I do all my shopping in the supermarket.

I'll give a shoutout to this farm - because they do sell their meat by mail order.

www.carnedward.co.uk/

I know the farmer personally and he is the nicest person ever; generous to a fault! The farm is open to the public (tearooms, camping etc) and he has been on TV a few times, so you know he has nothing to hide. It's not clever marketing; it's literally a bloke with half a mountain in West Wales, some rare breed cattle and sheep grazing away.

I've no idea how the prices compare to Riverford etc but I do know the animals are well cared for.

That’s not true. We are organic and our welfare standards are exceptionally higher than ted tractor or RSPCA!

We raise poultry and the rules for organic raised are just as much about the housing as it is the feed. Ours have doors open from 7am (bird flu permitting) and they have 4 acres to roam. They come into barns at night. Doors shut at dusk.

next door is an organic, grass fed beef farm. Supplies Ocado. We buy from there. The guy shows his cattle- absolutely wonderful animals. They are on 2000 acres. It’s fabulous- I’m lucky to have them next door.

Have you? I have been in slaughterhouses and loads of farms and still eat meat. But I’m fussy about the meat I do choose to eat. Not all farming is bad. And nor are all slaughterhouses. Animals don’t think about their future. I truly believe if we can provide a happy life and a good death then there isn’t a welfare issue. Organic doesn’t necessarily mean better but on the whole does. Nor are all smallholders better either.

I'm in farming and I know that organic certification means that the animals have had to live as natural life as possible. I think the least we can do is only buy British meat. I can't bring myself to buy any supermarket meat from a mammal. The only meat in our home is from a local butcher or what my dh has shot.

Sorry my previous message was a reply to the person who asked if a previous poster had been to a slaughterhouse. Look up the work of Temple Grandin

Animals don’t think about their future.

Do we actually know this - is there any research on the topic?

Not being goady, just genuinely curious. People always say that dogs live in the moment but I seem to have one that spends his life worrying about things that happened years ago, and I find it easy to believe that he can contemplate what might happen within a few hours or days. I see no evidence he has a sense of his own mortality though, given some of his piss poor decision making. They say pigs have comparable intelligence to dogs...

Some animals are clearly able to plan several months in advance - be it building nests well in advance, or creating hoards of food. Some will say it is instinct, but I'd still think it's evidence that they're aware of their own future.

Trying to design the research would be fascinating.

You want to look for organisations that champion small farmers and localised produce (including short distances from farm to abattoir - it's rarely talked about but actually one of the most cruel parts of the process for large scale meat production, being transported on large lorries in cramped conditions for hours, often very hot etc. For sensitive animals like pigs and cattle it can be very traumatic.)
I'm a meat eat, and that won't change. But I'm careful who and how I buy my meat.
Get speaking to your local butcher. Ask about cuts - try and eat more unusual cuts and a whole animal philosophy. Your butcher should know where his meat is sources and how it's kept. Don't go by red tractor branding and don't be misled by terms like "outdoor bred". You want to look for key phrases like "outdoor reared" or "traditionally farmed".
If you're near the south west I can recommend Field&Flower for an online company. Even if you don't buy from them, follow them on Instagram as they provide so much useful information on sustainable and high welfare farming. Same for people like Northern Native Produce and Wild By Nature.
Look for rare breed farmers, and those working to towards sustainability. A sustainable farm doesn't mean a high welfare one but you often find they go hand in hand.

This is such an interesting and helpful thread, thanks all!!

I boycott farmed salmon as salmon farming is absolutely horrific, both for the salmon and for the enviroment.
My ds is working for a campaign to try to stop it.
It’s a shame extinction rebellion or hunt saboteurs don’t turn their attention to that.

Farmed salmon is about as bad as it gets. It’s a shame as in these times of high fuel costs it is really quick to cook.

I live near a couple of farms who supply one of the companies the OP mentions with beef and lamb. Their animal welfare is really good. We buy once a month because it is expensive but it’s worth it. Organic is the gold standard, but Pasture for Life are worth a look if your budget really won’t stretch.

In terms of buying eggs and dairy (butter, milk, cheese etc), is it best just to buy organic, or are there other things to also watch out for when buying eggs and dairy? Unfortunately I don’t have any farms near me that I can buy from directly (but happy of course to order online from farms, if there’s an option). I always buy organic milk and eggs, but not always for butter, yoghurt and cheese etc, as I don’t see organic options that often, but will make an effort to from now on.

And in terms of salmon, I’ve been a slacker there Andante and Blue and haven’t paid attention to what I’ve bought in the past - I’m sure the salmon I’ve bought has always been farmed. I’ll have a lookout for wild salmon from now on.

I have yet to find an organic cheese that I like, but I only buy Kerry gold butter, calon wen milk when I can get it (or yeo valley if I can’t) and daylesford organic eggs.

The only salmon we get is leap. Pricey but wild.

Organic yoghurt is easy to make yourself. You just need to make it with organic milk and some live plain/greek yogurt. If you choose organic yogurt as your starter it will definitely be live, unlike something like Muller where its processed.

That’s interesting because I think the vast majority of animals live way better lives ( and deaths) than humans.

There are plenty of reasons to reduce or eliminate animal products from what you consume, but “how they die” really isn’t a valid one.

10,000 broilers per barn who if are lucky will be slaughtered at 72 weeks old, the unlucky ones will be left to die where they fall once they collapse under their own weight.

Sow cages where a pig cannot even turn her head. While her piglets suckle from her. The only time she will ever see the sun is on the trip to her death.

The dairy cow enduring a farmers arm up her anus,while the other arm is injecting sperm in to from her their cervix.

The dairy cow who will have her calfs taken from her until she becomes useless and will be sent to slaughter.

The poultry hen who will live for 72 weeks in a metal cage the size of A4 paper. (Though we pat ourselves on the back for increasing this size recently)

The male chicks who were thrown alive in to a macerator (blender) or tied up in a black rubbish bag to struggle until the air runs out.

Yup, life is just peachy for these guys.

I don’t think we can claim that sadly @FreudayNight. Perhaps that can be said for some organically raised animals (judging by what people have said on this thread). I think organic farming is the minority, not the rule, though - and conventional non-organic farming seems to be all about scale, and profit, which leaves the animals crammed in and living a life where they can’t behave naturally and feel stressed a lot of the time, I think.

conventional non-organic farming seems to be all about scale, and profit, which leaves the animals crammed in

That's not true for the beef, sheep and dairy farms I have been on in Ireland. I agree with a PP, I sometimes think they have a far better life than us! They are outside for as much of the year as possible. It doesn't even make economic sense to cram them in as more disease, higher vet bills etc.

Can't speak for the poultry or pig farms as haven't been on any, apart from small scale turkey farms (they were happy out).

Great summary here. All I'd like to add is that the tax payer is hugely subsidizing this industry.