‘Why should I pay for you to have a child?’

[Cuppasoupmonster]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/18/pay-child-uk-childcare?CMP=fb_gu&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2yWUzAXpWYbFCLjFDcKiQU5fwjZ-vd1FyGHsnWwcCfTDeSy57AX014AnI#Echobox=1666093596

Great article!

Hear hear! I couldn't agree with you more, OP.

I can't take an article like this seriously when she appears to have done very little research into the comparison she is making right at the start.

France? State-funded creches available to children from the age of two and a half months, with a strong historical notion that the government should facilitate a mother’s ability to work outside the home.

The reality in France is that barely any state funded creches exist. To stand a chance of a place at a standard fee paying creche you need to put your name on the list from the moment you find out you're pregnant (and in our case putting your name on the list a year in advance still didn't get us a place in creche).
So practically everyone uses a childminder, it's hugely expensive (I used to be so jealous when I read how much nursery in the UK cost) and very difficult to find a decent one in most areas - it's often a case of phoning through name after name on a list until you actually find one with any availability.

And the two and a half months limit is there because that's all the maternity leave you are entitled to - 16 weeks, 6 of which are normally expected to be taken before the birth.

Yes the UK system could improve, I have no doubt she had some awful experiences, but I get bored of this lazy comparison of mythical European childcare that isn't necessarily the reality.

From the article:

The UK has the second most expensive childcare system in the developed world and a government that basically assumes that ... the mother because let’s be honest, it is almost always the woman – will simply give up her job to devote her life to unpaid childcare. Or else grandparents will step in: usually the grandmother ... It’s all symbolic of a hideously dated attitude to the value of women’s work, which also manifests in the low wages paid to nursery and preschool staff, and the deliberate underfunding of the whole system.

Very true.

Also seen a few government pronouncements (not this current iteration yet) about families (presumably women ) taking care of older relative like happen in the past - with seemingly no acknowledgment that more women work full time for longer and other obstacles to this in modern world.

Spot on! I currently pay £850 per month for my ds to go to nursery 3 days a week. This will rise in December as it always does. I won't get the 30 hours for another 2 years and I've already had to go part time so that I can have a day off with him (to be honest id live to have more days iff with him) and my mil kindly has him the other day. It is disgraceful that we are not even entitled to the 15 hours when he turns 2. I'm trying to keep my job and career going which will benefit my children in the end whilst still trying to afford the roof over our heads and food on the table.
Yes no one made me have my children but they are very much wanted and loved.

I nearly fell off my chair when my DD told me the nursery where she has reserved a place for her baby when she returns to work next year will cost them £100 per day (central London)

I can't take any of her child related stuff seriously since she's only paying attention now it affects her.

Pregnant then screwed.

Some good points made but I can't take it seriously when she writes things like this.

Why don’t we just, I don’t know, roll around in our own excrement? Because what is society? What is humanity? Let’s just all be chimps, picking fleas off each other.

The reality in France is that barely any state funded creches exist. To stand a chance of a place at a standard fee paying creche you need to put your name on the list from the moment you find out you're pregnant (and in our case putting your name on the list a year in advance still didn't get us a place in creche).
So practically everyone uses a childminder, it's hugely expensive (I used to be so jealous when I read how much nursery in the UK cost) and very difficult to find a decent one in most areas - it's often a case of phoning through name after name on a list until you actually find one with any availability.

I'm glad you said this. I was a nanny in Paris. The youngest (2 year old) went to nursery for one morning per week because that was all that was available.

This journo irritated me. She had a baby and suddenly realised there were issues. Try listening to older women!

What always amazes me when people talk about childcare, and social care for adults, is the lack of understanding of basic economics.

A good example is the cost of 24 hour 365 care. One employee on NMW costs £9.50 x 24 x 365 =£83,220 plus employer NI and pension contributions. Clearly one person can’t provide 24x365 care so costs go up.

This is without adding in the cost of premises, council tax, insurance, water, gas, electric, broadband, food etc.

Society has a collective responsibility to look after the vulnerable be they children or adults. We need children to be educated to grow up to be valuable members of society, we need the elderly to be cared for in return for their contribution to society. We need to care for those who are disabled, ill or injured.

All of this costs significant sums of money. The question is always whether it is tax payers, parents/elderly, or a combination who pay.

It was the other way round for me.

In fairness I think it is almost impossible to understand the impact of having a small child until you are responsible 24/7 for a small child. My child-free boss can’t understand why I refuse to check my emails before 9am but she has no idea how time consuming it is to get a child ready for school in the morning. It’s just impossible to convey.

The ratios in the UK are far better than in many other European countries. I'm grateful to live in a country that requires a decent and safe standard to care for children. Yes, it's very expensive but for good reason.

@Suetwo
I tend to agree. Some people are unfortunate and fall into bad circumstances, others bring children into the world, treat them horrifically then history repeats.

yesterday I heard a mother in the street in London tel her toddler to “get that fucking thing out of your mouth” the child was barely 2. Vile.

what hope does that kid have?

It would have a lot more if it had some adequate childcare/pre-school education to help to redress the balance from his/her difficult upbringing a little bit more.

Honestly, this view and that of @Suetwo is just horrible. None of those children were born "vile".

I thought the article was really good.

Childcare and after school care could be means tested?
Not UK:
We had to provide evidence of need inkl.commute times and proof of income every year. We paid about 100 € a month for 2 DC.

True. But the problem with the “childcare for low income” thing is that it’s 80% or more of the time not suitable.

Most parents on low incomes work outside normal childcare hours. There are no nurseries open in you work 5-midnight in a pub, if you’re on a till at Tescos till 10pm, if you start in a care home at 6am, if you’re cleaning the fish packing factory or the hospital on nightshift. There’s no help or facilities for this yet we are just expected to get in with it and hope friends or family will do this unpaid or you pay them a token amount out of your already crap hourly wage.

As for the “why should I pay for you to have a child?” Bollocks some people come out with, I find if you counter with “well you don’t have to but without folk like me looking after your elderly relatives you can kiss goodbye to your lovely salary and career because you’re going to have to do it yourself” and it’s like radio silence after that. We do the work they don’t want to for wages they’d never accept to make their lives easier.

Sorry I don't see why I should pay for other people's childcare choices. Having a child is a choice and should come with responsibility including how you fund it. Compulsory education fine I even resent child benefit. Too many people want to have children with no responsibility for how to adequately look after them financially. And if this does mean only the rich can afford children that is fine by me at least they aren't costing net taxpayers money to fund their lifestyle choices.

"Because that’s who it is about, ultimately: children. You can make the economic case for childcare until the cows come home, but far more important is the wellbeing and education of children, who have a right to high-quality care and education that meets their social and emotional needs."

This.

If it's heavily subsidized and affordable for all, it evens up the odds of disaffected/socially disadvantaged children succeeding. Instead of falling by the wayside by the time they are 4.

Not that the Tories would care about that.

We live in Canada and the cost of daycare is $8.35 a day. PER DAY. That means that women can work and be independent. So you get kids from all walks of life having the same start in life. The same lessons, same food and social interactions.

I cannot praise the system in Canada enough.

Shit article
@Cuppasoupmonster anything that starts with the Finns … always held up but their suicide rates compared to the rest of Europe are off the scale.
if they’re all so happy ( spoiler, they’re really not) why are those high suicide rates?
usual Guardian why oh why, from a journo who suddenly realises they affected by an ‘issue’

if childcare is affordable more women can work.

for every £1 that women earn, GDP increases by more.

affordable childcare benefits everyone. It’s a net contributor to the economy.

source: invisible women

Agree with the article.

Not sure what suetwo is saying there and what it has to do with childcare for working parents. Just a rant.

Gosh, that was brave.

Cant disagree though. I know of more than a few families like this.