To wonder if Sarah Ockwell Smith actually has any useful advice in her books?

[Spicycurry]

I am sure she is a lovely lady and very good parent.

But I read her sleep book and it pretty much just told me to put up with it until my child slept better.

Ordered her toddler book and it seems to be much of the same.

it is helpful of course to understand where my child is coming from if you like but I am not sure it’s particularly useful to read when at the end of your tether!

or will I be flamed by her fans?

I have never understood this point of view. Of course adults wake up sometimes and resettle themselves - that is exactly what babies and children need to learn to do without parental input. As with all developmental milestones, some kids achieve it without any help, some kids need a nudge and some kids need a lot of support.

This split sleep thing doesn’t have much evidence as far as I can see. I’ve only ever seen a few literary references. Interested to learn more.

Of course adults wake up sometimes and resettle themselves - that is exactly what babies and children need to learn to do without parental input.

Agree. Imagine being utterly dependant on another person to fall asleep! I don't think that's kind to the child at all.

I don't disagree, it's just that adult sleep isn't always that simple either. And developmentally there's a lot of difference between a 6mo and a 3yo in terms of what support is 'appropriate' to help them sleep. I don't really buy that you need to teach 'self-soothing' in most kids, it's more a case of hurrying it along rather than then never learning it all.

Split nights are called biphasic sleep. BBC has a really interesting article about it.

www.bbc.com/future/article/20220107-the-lost-medieval-habit-of-biphasic-sleep

I read 'The Second Baby Book' by Sarah OS when I was pregnant with my second and it did have some quite practical tips in it. I remember thinking this was strange because I'd found her book about baby sleep so useless! I think generally her ideas are not much practical help.

Just the term 'gentle parenting' seems so judgmental. What's the opposite of gentle - rough, aggressive, etc? In my experience most parents are pretty gentle with their children regardless of whether or not they co-sleep, breastfeed on demand for two years, and so on.

I actually like a split sleep. If i go to bed early sometimes i get up and potter round at 3am for an hour then go back to bed.

It's funny, DD1 went through a spate of split nights when she was 2 where she would wake about 11pm and be awake till 1am and in the end I just embraced it and we had some hilarious chats and things during that time. I miss it a little.

I might be odd but I would rather 8/9 hours split sleep and get up at 8am or something than fewer hours in one block and have to get up for the day earlier. Maybe I would be better suited to the Middle Ages

I agree i prefer that! I must be mediaeval too 😂

finding this thread really interesting! I have read a couple of SOS books. found bits of the potty training and second baby book good. and also the why is my baby's sleep important. but having seen what people said here, yes I can see how actually its very much about just saying everything is normal and basically just keep going.

I do bedshare with my nearly 3yo and he can and often does sleep through, he does like me there at bedtime to lie with him and bf before cuddle to sleep. but he'll go to sleep for DH or childminder with no crying. I'm doing the same with my newborn. I find SOSs reassurance comforting but I guess I wasn't looking for any strategies to change anything.

but to add to my post above, I have a friend who generally follows gentle parenting / SOS and her 3yo DD is quite wild and hits other kids A LOT. but, I do similar and my DS does not and is generally pretty good BUT he is pretty placid.

And another but, I tend to get less stressed about most stuff. e.g. I send my DS to a childminder who he loves and I think she's great but she disciplines differently to me. my friend wouldn't send her DD there, and won't send her to any childcare even though she has 30 free hrs because she can't find anywhere that will follow her methods. instead takes her to a specific school almost an hour away from their house which means she has to wait there and doesn't get any free time. I think she seems so rundown a lot but I dont want to suggest / imply criticism as I know what it's like when you want to do something and other people suggest not doing it as it might be easier. anyway, a ramble but this thread has got me thinking!

I quite liked some of between but then it got very smug towards the end when she said her tweens knew the difference between a mortgage and an ISA/fed the homeless/solved climate change by 12. When she said they got a 'mental health day' on demand every term I also rolled my eyes a bit, there's a week off every 6 weeks for school holidays, I'm not sure you need an extra 6 term time duvet days. The teachers must love her.

This

The thing with SOS/co sleeping/ gentle parenting etc. is that it needs to give you results you're happy with/can live with or it's not actually working for you.

I couldn't sleep co sleeping because I was terrified of smothering my DC. I got a worse night's sleep because of it. People only have a sleep problem if their child's sleep is causing problems for them or their child. Adults do wake several times in the night, most smart watches prove that. But if I shook my DH awake every time I woke up and told him 'I'm awake. I can't sleep' then we have a sleep problem! Same as if your child comes into your room and wakes you up. You have a sleep problem!

I had a colleague who was unfunctioning because she'd co slept until her DC was 3 and she just couldn't do it anymore because of the poor sleep she got but had massive SOS gentle parenting guilt. She had a sleep problem!

It's no more unkind to teach your child to sleep than it is to teach them to wear clothes when you leave the house. They might protest fiercely about doing both but somehow SOS tells us that bedtime teaching isn't gentle parenting. There are always ways to get your child to comply with what needs to happen for them and you to be functioning members of society ie clothed and well rested. Books that tell you to just live with it are hugely unhelpful.

Absolutely Chesure. We moved my DD from our room to her own at 7 months. In our room she was waking every two hours. First night in her room she slept 11 hours straight.

The sleep was amazing enough, but the most interesting thing was the difference it made in her. She was a much happier, more settled, sunnier baby during the day from that moment on, which is obvious when you think about it. Sleep is just as important for them as it is for us.

They don't really if you just give them your tit. It's all they want. They're crying because they have an innate need to suckle and if they can't it's very distressing. They just want their mummy, that's it. It's not forever.

I did nothing but give mine my tit (). She still cried, and screamed, and had terrible sleep.

Gave my second the same, she was happy as a baby but now as a toddler struggles sometimes with going back over if she wakes during the night.

There's no one size fits all solution. Sleep is important.

What's "terrible sleep"? A newborn is terrified to be alone. If you sleep with them they are fine. Sounds like you attempted to get a newborn human to "self-soothe" which is the most absurd notion I've ever heard to be honest. Nothing makes less sense.

Terrible sleep was a baby who would feed to sleep and settle upright, but lying horizontal caused pain and so she would wake and cry in pain. Medication for silent reflux helped, but not entirely. Naps could happen on me in the carrier, but that meant I struggled to get anything done. And then up all night. Taking it in turns to sit up in bed holding her so we could grab a bit of sleep. At no point was she left to self settle beyond the first few grumbles. It nearly fucking killed me and I have zero judgement for those who take another approach.

With my toddler, if she wakes she's up for two hours minimum. If she's awake and unhappy about it, one of us is with her. On Monday at the end of a difficult run when I was already exhausted, I taught for four hours on four hours of broken sleep as DH is away. By the end of my last tutorial I was slurring my words.

Don't you dare imply that my children sleep or slept poorly because I neglect them in any way.

Those who judge parents for seeking to improve sleep are the absolute worst.

I would probably be classed as a gentle parent although I hate the term and I can’t stand SOS and her patronising crap. The Facebook group is full of judgmental people who just love to put others down. There are also clearly a huge number of people who mistake being ‘ gentle’ with being permissive.

On one hand you’re terrified of letting them cry and be alone and your gut wants to comfort them. But on the other hand you’re told sleep is important and by not sleep training you’re being cruel. So basically you always feel guilty no matter what. :(

Sad times. This was such a nice thread. Will have to stop checking it now and go back to aggressively parenting my poor neglected toddler. Not a tit in sight.

@mavismorpoth

And nothing makes less sense to me than putting your tiny vulnerable newborn in a big soft squishy bed with an unconscious adult.

Or to buy in to the nonsense that not having a newborn attached to your tit 24/7 will cause them some kind of harm

I agree. Until they can learn that their bed is safe they should be helped to sleep. You can teach a baby, gently, that they are safe and secure in their beds and they can go back to sleep once they've woken.

@mavismorpoth I exclusively breastfed & my son was a terrible sleeper 😂 he had 24/7 access to my boobs and he was STILL a terrible sleeper! Its taken nearly 2 years for him to sleep through.
Every baby is different, every family dynamic is different.
Less of the judging maybe?
I wouldn't co-sleep with a newborn. Not worth the sids risk. He was in a next to me cot and the second he turned 6 months he was in the bed with me.

You're in a global minority. Asleep is not unconscious.