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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this is awful? (Just Stop Oil protesters throwing soup over Van Gogh painting)

613 replies

TheCatsPyjamas1 · 14/10/2022 12:44

Just read that some Just Stop Oil protesters have thrown soup over a Van Gogh painting in the National Gallery in London. AIBU to think this is unacceptable?

I fully support the message of the group (investing in environmentally responsible energy rather than fossil fuels, and helping to make society more equal for everyone), but I find their protest methods are awful and risk alienating people who would otherwise support them.

They keep on doing crazy things, and seem to be escalating their action each time they protest. I don’t really know when or how it’ll end.

OP posts:
BerriesOnTop · 17/10/2022 10:12

@CherryGenoa

oh, the Economist said it, so it must be true then? 🤦‍♀️

All you have to do is look at the history of flooding in Pakistan. Here’s an article from the NYT about the 1973 floods: www.nytimes.com/1973/08/23/archives/flood-situation-in-pakistan-is-called-extremely-serious.html

What they need is literally more fossil fuels to construct better infrastructure. They haven’t done this, and the locals deserve better than that.

What they don’t need is you using the situation for your own political cause.

And lol I wish I was an industry shill. In fact, it makes me angry these companies don’t push back against the green delusion—they make a product we use literally every moment of every day, and most are entirely unaware of it.

BerriesOnTop · 17/10/2022 10:26

People saying that science isn't predicting scenarios as apocalyptic as some are implying are missing the very important fact that science is only predicting the environmental impact and not the human reaction. What do you think happens when resources run low?

We are nowhere near peak oil. Of course,
if you politically bar oil & gas exploration, then you will be causing a manmade shortage, as is happening in Europe now.

When land becomes unlivable?

The IPCC reports do not mention ‘unlivable’ and ‘uninhabitable’ land. You should read the reports—it’s a bit drier than whatever apocalyptic literature you are reading.

How do you think nuclear powers will react to an increasingly desperate battle for resources?

If you mean damming rivers for hydro, well I do disagree with that and it is very impactful on developing economies, obvious effect on those downstream. Better to use cheaper fossil fuels in these cases for sure.

One of the worst economic disasters in the past year has been Sri Lanka, which tried to ban chemical fertilisers and use organic methods.

Well you can guess yields went down precipitously — leading to economic ruin. This was an entirely manmade disaster and you can expect more of it if green parties succeed.

ILeclercreturn · 17/10/2022 10:28

So, the floods in Pakistan were deemed very serious. NOW you have to consider what the Pakistani government gas done or not done since 1973 to mitigate against such damage. The UK and other governments have allowed building on flood plains, or in areas known to have potential problems but they go ahead (in the UK) because the housing market is badly skewed by greed. The Somerset levels that were flooded a year or two back and other areas were impacted by failing to consider unusually high rainfall, despite a gradual change in weather patterns over the decades.

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 10:29

CherryGenoa · 17/10/2022 09:23

There’s a good letter in the Guardian this morning

Full of political bias, of course.

Feelingconfused2020 · 17/10/2022 10:33

This thread is so depressing. I know there's a wide variety of opinion on mumsnet but to see so many right wing, climate denying,judgmental, selfish opinions on a site meant for women is not a good look. I know not all women hold these opinions but if you honestly value the van Gogh painting or some milk (!?) more than the planet and actually think people are extreme for protesting against fossil fuels you are shameful and I am ashamed to be part of a site that's gives a voice to these opinions.
I'm out.

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 10:37

Feelingconfused2020 · 17/10/2022 10:33

This thread is so depressing. I know there's a wide variety of opinion on mumsnet but to see so many right wing, climate denying,judgmental, selfish opinions on a site meant for women is not a good look. I know not all women hold these opinions but if you honestly value the van Gogh painting or some milk (!?) more than the planet and actually think people are extreme for protesting against fossil fuels you are shameful and I am ashamed to be part of a site that's gives a voice to these opinions.
I'm out.

Selfish? Pouring human excrement over a monument to a man who fought for his country is VERY selfish, not to mention insular. You lot don't even see your own hypocrisy. Wrap it up any way you want, criminal activity is not the way to address environmental issues. You condone it. I don't. Cheerio.

ILeclercreturn · 17/10/2022 10:42

{Stars71 · Today 10:29

CherryGenoa · Today 09:23

There’s a good letter in the Guardian this morning

Full of political bias, of course.}
Discrediting anything that easily is the act of a totalitarian regime. there is a massive failure of critical thinking where to get an accurate view you HAVE to read multiple sources and sift out the common bits of 'truth'. Simply dismissing the Economist or the Guardian is the clear indication you have a very small mind and are incapable of critical assesment. Everyone has some bias but unless you are simply a 'nodding dog' follower you must seek out truth by comparing with other sources. For example the Chinese protestor dragged into the Ambassador's compound in Manchester. Reported in the Daily Mail (strong pro Brexit Brexit mouthpiece) and the Independent (has some bias but less obvious) but the stories essentially match so likely to be as accurate as necessary. The fact the incident happened at all should be a massive wake up call to many in the UK as it represents an awkward shift in UK/Chinese relations.

thedancingbear · 17/10/2022 10:43

ReunitedThorns · 17/10/2022 09:43

These protesters don't believe in the cause, they just want to cause a bit of trouble. Most lead incredibly climate damaging lives and these protests are rather white middle class art school type of protests.

Evidence please.

CatsandFish · 17/10/2022 10:45

Feelingconfused2020 · 17/10/2022 10:33

This thread is so depressing. I know there's a wide variety of opinion on mumsnet but to see so many right wing, climate denying,judgmental, selfish opinions on a site meant for women is not a good look. I know not all women hold these opinions but if you honestly value the van Gogh painting or some milk (!?) more than the planet and actually think people are extreme for protesting against fossil fuels you are shameful and I am ashamed to be part of a site that's gives a voice to these opinions.
I'm out.

I think what is depressing is that there are supposed adults on this site that are defending the subhuman scum who do these stunts because they think you can't take climate change seriously unless you are pouring excrement over a statue or tipping milk all over the floor.

What happened to the arrested development of those defending such disgusting , evil, subhuman selfish behaviours? I thought this was a site for adults. Not ill-bred children. I thought adults on Mumsnet would 100% condemn these stunts. I guess I misjudged the morals and maturity of people on here.

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 10:50

ILeclercreturn · 17/10/2022 10:42

{Stars71 · Today 10:29

CherryGenoa · Today 09:23

There’s a good letter in the Guardian this morning

Full of political bias, of course.}
Discrediting anything that easily is the act of a totalitarian regime. there is a massive failure of critical thinking where to get an accurate view you HAVE to read multiple sources and sift out the common bits of 'truth'. Simply dismissing the Economist or the Guardian is the clear indication you have a very small mind and are incapable of critical assesment. Everyone has some bias but unless you are simply a 'nodding dog' follower you must seek out truth by comparing with other sources. For example the Chinese protestor dragged into the Ambassador's compound in Manchester. Reported in the Daily Mail (strong pro Brexit Brexit mouthpiece) and the Independent (has some bias but less obvious) but the stories essentially match so likely to be as accurate as necessary. The fact the incident happened at all should be a massive wake up call to many in the UK as it represents an awkward shift in UK/Chinese relations.

I'm not a nodding dog. I leave that to the vulgar protestors and their followers.

ILeclercreturn · 17/10/2022 10:52

{Feelingconfused2020 · Today 10:33

This thread is so depressing.}
While considering climate change and fossil fuels etc you have to consider basic physics. If your goal is to move say 20 litres of water from a well to your house, it requires energy. This could be achieved with a small 'vehicle' with a motor of some sort, or your mother/large child could carry it on their head.
Either method requires energy to be expended so 'fuel' for a motor or food for the person carrying. Learning some basics in STEM subjects would enable you to understand this and make a decision about the 'best' way to accomplish this task. People need to understand the world and not jump to conclusions that are unsound.

MarshaBradyo · 17/10/2022 11:00

DancingBear always good to get the other perspective. Can I ask how you see the parts I found incongruous re the protest.

The protestors ended by talking about CoL and then the link to soup - if oil were to stop now what do you see the cost of energy doing? Or is it more a transition you are looking for so the price doesn’t spiral out of most people’s reach

Ditto the protests re HS2 and nuclear - do you agree with those and if so how do we transition to electric train travel and nuclear energy?

LimpBiskit · 17/10/2022 11:42

Feelingconfused2020 · 17/10/2022 10:33

This thread is so depressing. I know there's a wide variety of opinion on mumsnet but to see so many right wing, climate denying,judgmental, selfish opinions on a site meant for women is not a good look. I know not all women hold these opinions but if you honestly value the van Gogh painting or some milk (!?) more than the planet and actually think people are extreme for protesting against fossil fuels you are shameful and I am ashamed to be part of a site that's gives a voice to these opinions.
I'm out.

Nothing wrong with protesting but some of the methods are totally unacceptable and damaging. No-one has said they value a painting more than the planet but how does attacking a painting save the planet? There's a nuance in protesting that involves being noticed but also bringing people with you and some of the more recent protests have just alienated people. Take tyre extinguishers. Someone let the tyres down of a land rover on my road. It knackered the tyres and they are £250 each. That vehicle also acts as a back up mountain rescue vehicle so it was out of commission for a couple of days. Totally mindless acts of vandalism do not support a cause.

Blossomtoes · 17/10/2022 12:02

Feelingconfused2020 · 17/10/2022 10:33

This thread is so depressing. I know there's a wide variety of opinion on mumsnet but to see so many right wing, climate denying,judgmental, selfish opinions on a site meant for women is not a good look. I know not all women hold these opinions but if you honestly value the van Gogh painting or some milk (!?) more than the planet and actually think people are extreme for protesting against fossil fuels you are shameful and I am ashamed to be part of a site that's gives a voice to these opinions.
I'm out.

Loving the assumption that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is right wing. I couldn’t be much further to the left. Disapproving of privileged brats wasting food and making minimum wage workers unnecessary work doesn’t look particularly right wing from where I’m sitting.

Maireas · 17/10/2022 12:09

Excellent points, @LimpBiskit and @Blossomtoes, as ever 👍

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 17/10/2022 13:14

ILeclerc, Berries, Stars and Cats, I appreciate your commitment to defending your opinions. I don't quite 'get' the motivation though - is it really just to discredit some young activists and cast unfounded aspersions on their character? Literally no harm has been done, so it seems it just comes down to a personal feeling of indignation?

Berries, you are quoting the IPCC report in the most selective way, hinting that any other reading of unfolding world events is alarmist, ill-informed and overly dramatic. This is so sneaky! Parts of the world are indeed becoming 'unlivable' as a direct consequence of man-made climate change: in my professional role I often meet families from countries who report how life is increasingly hazardous or impoverished as a direct result of adverse climate conditions. These places may have experienced similar issues historically, but current events are exacerbated by the climate emergency. Examples include Jordan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Mali, Afghanistan and Somalia.

Further up the thread you suggest that my suggestion to manage our expectations of our future standard of living and working toward sustainable adaptations will cause more death and misery (I paraphrase) than climate change. Really? What do you think is being advocated? We cannot pursue a global or national growth economy indefinitely on a planet of finite resources. A gradual transition to sustainable alternatives will be necessary. Failure to make timely adaptations to mitigate future damage is what will cause untold harm.

Marsha, I remember when Greta first became 'the face' of the climate movement and London and other cities erupted with the first Rebellion events. People would say "That's all very well, these people all moaning about the climate, but what are the alternatives? What are their policies? What do they suggest we should be doing instead? What does XR actually want!? " thus dismissing the concerns of activists as clueless at best or inflammatory hypocrisy at worst. The early core message was always clear, and directed at the governments of the world as opposed to individuals: "Tell the truth" and "Act as if the truth is real". The point I am making is that it should not be up to the populace to solve the climate emergency. Governments need to act responsibly and with due urgency and transparency; to listen to scientists and hold corporations to account. The points you raise about HS2 and nuclear energy are really good examples of where conflicting interests, expected harm vs potential benefit, integrity and timescales collide. Fracking is another one. There is abundant scientific research and evidence that these will cause harm in the short, medium and long term. The irreparable damage to wildlife predicted by the HS2 project may seem surmountable if one's focus is on economic growth (which is what all the 'benefits' essentially boil down to: prioritising the capacity to rapidly transit a workforce or consumers participating in the growth economy), over the preservation of ancient woodlands (with their inherent capacity to sequester carbon), watercourses and the wildlife therein. Nuclear energy is similarly touted as a green alternative and I have yet to see a single solution to the problem presented by the storage of the huge quantities of radioactive waste generated which will not store up dire problems for future generations and be vulnerable to any number of environmental factors, material deterioration or human error, potentially causing critical damage. I grew up experiencing directly the impact of the Chernobyl disaster, which had lasting and damaging impact on the community of my childhood, albeit in another country hundreds of miles away.

Growth may be necessary to enable us to sustain the status quo for a while longer, until other factors inevitably intercept the trajectory, and what happens then will no doubt be more damaging than a planned and anticipated weaning off our dependency on fossil fuels and transitioning to a more sustainable alternative, which should include adjustments in living standards.

And whoever likened the activists of my acquaintance I referred to in my previous post to Antifa; nope, all acquitted of all charges. Not guilty. Judge and jury on the right side of history.

CatsandFish · 17/10/2022 13:21

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 17/10/2022 13:14

ILeclerc, Berries, Stars and Cats, I appreciate your commitment to defending your opinions. I don't quite 'get' the motivation though - is it really just to discredit some young activists and cast unfounded aspersions on their character? Literally no harm has been done, so it seems it just comes down to a personal feeling of indignation?

Berries, you are quoting the IPCC report in the most selective way, hinting that any other reading of unfolding world events is alarmist, ill-informed and overly dramatic. This is so sneaky! Parts of the world are indeed becoming 'unlivable' as a direct consequence of man-made climate change: in my professional role I often meet families from countries who report how life is increasingly hazardous or impoverished as a direct result of adverse climate conditions. These places may have experienced similar issues historically, but current events are exacerbated by the climate emergency. Examples include Jordan, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Mali, Afghanistan and Somalia.

Further up the thread you suggest that my suggestion to manage our expectations of our future standard of living and working toward sustainable adaptations will cause more death and misery (I paraphrase) than climate change. Really? What do you think is being advocated? We cannot pursue a global or national growth economy indefinitely on a planet of finite resources. A gradual transition to sustainable alternatives will be necessary. Failure to make timely adaptations to mitigate future damage is what will cause untold harm.

Marsha, I remember when Greta first became 'the face' of the climate movement and London and other cities erupted with the first Rebellion events. People would say "That's all very well, these people all moaning about the climate, but what are the alternatives? What are their policies? What do they suggest we should be doing instead? What does XR actually want!? " thus dismissing the concerns of activists as clueless at best or inflammatory hypocrisy at worst. The early core message was always clear, and directed at the governments of the world as opposed to individuals: "Tell the truth" and "Act as if the truth is real". The point I am making is that it should not be up to the populace to solve the climate emergency. Governments need to act responsibly and with due urgency and transparency; to listen to scientists and hold corporations to account. The points you raise about HS2 and nuclear energy are really good examples of where conflicting interests, expected harm vs potential benefit, integrity and timescales collide. Fracking is another one. There is abundant scientific research and evidence that these will cause harm in the short, medium and long term. The irreparable damage to wildlife predicted by the HS2 project may seem surmountable if one's focus is on economic growth (which is what all the 'benefits' essentially boil down to: prioritising the capacity to rapidly transit a workforce or consumers participating in the growth economy), over the preservation of ancient woodlands (with their inherent capacity to sequester carbon), watercourses and the wildlife therein. Nuclear energy is similarly touted as a green alternative and I have yet to see a single solution to the problem presented by the storage of the huge quantities of radioactive waste generated which will not store up dire problems for future generations and be vulnerable to any number of environmental factors, material deterioration or human error, potentially causing critical damage. I grew up experiencing directly the impact of the Chernobyl disaster, which had lasting and damaging impact on the community of my childhood, albeit in another country hundreds of miles away.

Growth may be necessary to enable us to sustain the status quo for a while longer, until other factors inevitably intercept the trajectory, and what happens then will no doubt be more damaging than a planned and anticipated weaning off our dependency on fossil fuels and transitioning to a more sustainable alternative, which should include adjustments in living standards.

And whoever likened the activists of my acquaintance I referred to in my previous post to Antifa; nope, all acquitted of all charges. Not guilty. Judge and jury on the right side of history.

It's about morals and principles. Those activists discredit themselves by the harm they do to others (such as milk hazard on the floor, blocking the roads, etc - it is not a victimless crime, someone always suffers somehow for their actions). Do you not understand that one can advocate for action on climate change, without acting like an immature 7 year old child? Doesn't maturity and acting with decency and conscientiousness come into it? How can a mature, well-adjusted adult possibly defend their actions?
I never, ever, ever thought I would see anyone on here (at least over the age of 25) defend these horrible nasty brats.

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 14:06

Is Owen Jones on this thread? Feels like it, with all the flouncing going on. For right wing, read standards, morals and free speech (within the confines of the law); something the left wing can't fathom.

Blossomtoes · 17/10/2022 14:08

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 14:06

Is Owen Jones on this thread? Feels like it, with all the flouncing going on. For right wing, read standards, morals and free speech (within the confines of the law); something the left wing can't fathom.

Oi! I can fathom it! 😂

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 14:17

Blossomtoes · 17/10/2022 14:08

Oi! I can fathom it! 😂

😅

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 14:27

@Blossomtoes as far as lefties go Blossom., you're OK 👌

YouWereGr8InLittleMenstruators · 17/10/2022 15:25

Stars, I hear what you are staying and I must admit that I often flinch when I hear reports of seemingly outrageous actions carried out by environmental activists.

Then I remember how our government is stalling on environmental policy and is actively causing harm both nationally and internationally by not implementing change and being complicit in environmentally damaging activity. And I question why I'm not walking around in perpetual anguish in the face of the damage done to life. How it is that this real, irreversible harm has become so much part of the water in which we swim that it just washes over us, day in, day out.
I think of my mother's life-long environmental activism, tirelessly writing letters to MPs, boards of directors, privately boycotting products and companies who operate in ways which damage the planet, signing petitions, and patronising environmental lobby groups and organisations which work to protect wildlife. Her life is designed around keeping her carbon footprint absolutely tiny. You would probably approve of her kind of activism; dignified, quiet and definitely not disruptive. And I conclude, on balance, that 50 years of her, and people like her, doing this stuff has not been as effective as what has been achieved as a result of direct action and peaceful protest in the UK in the last 5 years.
Because our government doesn't really want to listen.

Blossomtoes · 17/10/2022 16:00

Stars71 · 17/10/2022 14:27

@Blossomtoes as far as lefties go Blossom., you're OK 👌

Thank you ☺️

VegMam · 17/10/2022 16:37

There’s a huge amount of misinformation on this thread so I would urge anyone reading to do your own research, read the IPCC reports, see what the actual science says (btw just stop oil, extinction rebellion etc. are simply following the science).

50 scientists held a protest at the world health summit yesterday, it’s not made any headlines. A tweet covering it Here.

GooseberryCinnamonYogurt · 17/10/2022 16:51

VegMam · 17/10/2022 16:37

There’s a huge amount of misinformation on this thread so I would urge anyone reading to do your own research, read the IPCC reports, see what the actual science says (btw just stop oil, extinction rebellion etc. are simply following the science).

50 scientists held a protest at the world health summit yesterday, it’s not made any headlines. A tweet covering it Here.

Yes you're right but the manner in which they are protesting isn't going to change anything. All it does is alienate themselves.

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