AIBU?
Can someone explain in laymans terms what is happening with the BOE/pension funds on Friday?
Silverin · 11/10/2022 21:38
There seems to be a lot of panicked talk in the financial media about pension funds potentially collapsing and the BOE needing to step in to help them but this support being stopped on Friday.
As a layperson, I would like to understand what is going on - what are gilts, what did the BOE do/not do and what are the risks to pension funds that could cause a collapse on Friday?
InMySpareTime · 12/10/2022 08:28
This is a good podcast series about basic money topics, clear without being patronising. It's from 2019 so a bit out of date but the basic principles are the same.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p07y8rnk?partner=uk.co.bbc
Andypandy799 · 12/10/2022 08:35
Rosehugger · 12/10/2022 08:31
It's all bollocks. The upshot is the very wealthy (top 0.5% not 5%) will take more of our money. Our lives get gradually more shit while they have more money than they know what to do with.
That’s the people who have the money to buy the cheap shares and houses and control interest rates
StatisticallyChallenged · 12/10/2022 08:38
KettleOn919 · 12/10/2022 08:19
How is this going to affect those of us still paying into DC workplace pensions? Should we request to switch our funds so that they don't keep pumping such a large proportion of each contribution into the rapidly failing gilts?
This comes down to risk and your attitude to/perception of it.
Gilts are unlikely to ever be worthless - their value will (and has) dropped, but they might well climb again.
If you switch to investing more heavily in equities then you might well see a higher return as equity returns tend to be somewhat inflation linked. But we're heading in to major economic turmoil, so there's a risk of more companies than usual going bust which makes their equities worthless.
Mine is in equities and with the market turmoil it's lost everything I've contributed this year. I'm not overly worried as I have a long time until retirement and knew I was in a high volatility fund so ups and downs are to be expected but it's a tad depressing. More worrying is that - like many companies - they have a lifestyling approach where the default strategy is to switch to less risky investments as retirement date approaches. Care to guess what those less risky investments are...gilts, gilt trackers and other such instruments. Those closest to retirement who are in default funds are going to be the most exposed
hobbledyhoy · 12/10/2022 08:39
Bookclub99 · 11/10/2022 23:30
This is what is happening:
A Gilt is debt issued by the UK. When the Treasury needs to borrow money, it issues a Gilt (effectively an IOU note) to investors. For example, if the Treasury issued a £100 4% coupon 5-year Gilt, it would receive £100 from an investor and give them in exchange an IOU note in which it promised to repay the investor £100 in 5 years time and in the meantime pay them £4 of interest each year. The investor doesn't have to hold the IOU note until the Treasury repays the debt at the end of 5 years. It can sell the IOU note to other investors or buy more IOU notes from yet more investors if it wants to.
For reasons I won't go into here (because it will take ages to explain) defined benefit (aka final salary) pension schemes need to invest the money they will ultimately use to fund their members' pension payments in Gilts. Lots and lots of Gilts. So many, in fact, that they borrowed money to buy those Gilts. For example, if a pension scheme had £100, it went and borrowed an extra £200 and invested £300 in Gilts. Borrowing money to invest in something magnifies gains and losses. In the example given above, if you had invested just the original £100 and your Gilt investment lost 20% of its value you would have lost £20, leaving you with £80. However, if you borrowed £200 and invested £300, then you would have lost £60, leaving you with just £40 once you had paid back the £200 you borrowed.
For yet more reasons I won't go into (because I lack the skill to explain this in layman's terms), when interest rates rise, the price of Gilts falls.
The Bank of England sets interest rates and uses them to control inflation by increasing them when inflation threatens. Because of a mix of Brexit, Covid shutdowns in China and Russia's invasion of Ukraine, there have been supply shortages of certain things (e.g., oil/gas because of the Ukraine thing). This has led to inflation because when things are in short supply their prices increase.The Bank of England has raised interest rates to combat this inflation. This led to the price of Gilts falling. A lot.
Then old Truss/Kwarteng come along and announced a load of tax cuts. Tax cuts are inflationary because people have more money to spend, further driving up the price of those things in short supply.
This meant the Bank of England had to raise interest rates even more. The price of Gilts fell further. A lot further.
Now back to those pension schemes. They are making huge losses on their Gilt holdings. Because they borrowed money to invest in those Gilts, their losses have been magnified, and the people who lent them the money are now demanding they pay it back, so the pension schemes are having to sell Gilts to repay the money, further driving down the price of Gilts... it's a vicious cycle.
To help the pension schemes, the Bank of England offered to step in and buy Gilts. By buying Gilts, the Bank of England drives their price higher, thereby stemming the pension schemes' losses and arresting that vicious cycle. However, the Bank of England really doesn't want to do this. The reason why is because the Bank of England has to print money to buy the Gilts. Money printing is inflationary... so will ultimately drive interest rates higher (to control the inflation), which will force the price of Gilts lower, so the Bank of England has to print more money to buy more Gilts to save the pension schemes... and so on. Another doom loop. That is why the Bank of England put a time limit on buying Gilts - they wanted to do just enough to buy the pension schemes some time to stablise themselves - then stop to avoid the doom loop scenario. That time limit expires this Friday.
People thought the Bank of England might extend the time limit because the pension schemes are still in a huge mess, however the governor has just said that won't happen (presumably because he wants to avoid the doom loop scenario). So now everyone is shitting themselves.
It's all horribly messy. I don't know how this will be fixed, but the only realistic options are: 1) the Bank of England capitulates and starts buying Gilts again (this isn't a good answer because of the doom loop issue), or 2) Truss/Kwarteng reverse all their stupid tax cuts and resign.
If neither of those two things happens some pension schemes may make irrecoverable losses which would mean they wouldn't have enough money to fulfil the promises they made to their members. The only way to fix this would be for the pension scheme employer to put money into the scheme (some won't have enough), for the government to put money into failing schemes (i.e., a bailout) and/or the pension schemes break their promises to their members and don't pay them as much money as they said they would when the members retire - likely a combo of the three.
An excellent post, thank you!
Andypandy799 · 12/10/2022 08:39
Look what is the true value of money?
It’s a long one but anyone who wonders who really has the power and what’s to see things from a different perspective have a look at the video
JFK to 911 Everything Is A Rich Man's Trick
There is also a book but be warned it’s over 3 hrs long and talks about hitler and the genocide of millions during ww2
Bumpsadaisie · 12/10/2022 08:45
Thanks to everyone for the incredible explanations on here.
One burning question is why did Truss/Kwarteng do this? Were they poorly advised? Did they not foresee that this might happen? Did they think it was a necessary "pain" we need to forge through to get to a better place?
Are they just very grandiose and out of touch with reality, psychologically? DId they think it would just all be alright?
Both are highly intelligent and educated people so just saying "they're tory bastards" doesn't really work as an explanation ...
Buggsilla · 12/10/2022 08:48
Bumpsadaisie · 12/10/2022 08:45
Thanks to everyone for the incredible explanations on here.
One burning question is why did Truss/Kwarteng do this? Were they poorly advised? Did they not foresee that this might happen? Did they think it was a necessary "pain" we need to forge through to get to a better place?
Are they just very grandiose and out of touch with reality, psychologically? DId they think it would just all be alright?
Both are highly intelligent and educated people so just saying "they're tory bastards" doesn't really work as an explanation ...
Because if we could sweep upwards with massive growth it would lift us out of this. The issue is, we're up against world events in addition to home ones & we're not in control of world events.
Dotjones · 12/10/2022 08:58
TheFrendo · 12/10/2022 08:38
@MarshaBradyo If it is we ran out of money / debt capacity a while ago
The growing government debt is our government's gift to our children. A gift that was not wanted or agreed to.
There may be trouble ahead...
That's long been the case though. We were paying off our WWII debt until the early 2000s - nobody asked me whether I was happy to pay for something that happened long before I was born. The whole welfare state system is basically a big pyramid scheme that relies on the young paying for the old, which works as long as their are enough young people to pay for the previous generations, but relies on an ever-growing young population which is unsustainable.
I think what needs to happen is a simple cancelling of all debt, then start afresh.
SerendipityJane · 12/10/2022 08:59
AloysiusBear · 11/10/2022 23:10
Miceonabranch
Depends if you mean DB. Yes, some poorly managed smaller schemes could fail, there are protection systems in place though.
However the protection is merely the other funds having to cough up to prevent the collapse. Exactly the same way when all those energy companies went bust the survivors had to pay to keep their customers afloat and so their bills went up.
Legalhelpifpossibleplease · 12/10/2022 09:01
I am trying to understand but not quite getting how it might impact us on the ground.
We have a private pension we paid into but stopped contributions when things were tight. Is this a DC pension? What do I need to look for on our statements e.g if there are gilts mentioned, our pot could be in trouble? We are close-is
StatisticallyChallenged · 12/10/2022 09:07
Legalhelpifpossibleplease · 12/10/2022 09:01
I am trying to understand but not quite getting how it might impact us on the ground.
We have a private pension we paid into but stopped contributions when things were tight. Is this a DC pension? What do I need to look for on our statements e.g if there are gilts mentioned, our pot could be in trouble? We are close-is
It's probably DC - so it's basically a pot of money which you have invested in various things. Have a look at your statement or online portal and it should tell you what you are invested in- probably a fund name, or more than one, if you have an online account you should be able to see fund value too. If you can't find info on what the fund is invested in then shout, I'm sure one of us on here will be able to explain
MarshaBradyo · 12/10/2022 09:09
TheFrendo · 12/10/2022 08:38
@MarshaBradyo If it is we ran out of money / debt capacity a while ago
The growing government debt is our government's gift to our children. A gift that was not wanted or agreed to.
There may be trouble ahead...
Frendo agree. Although I can’t see a solution. Can anyone on here maybe I’m missing it
I absolutely despaired at the Covid related spending and debt and after it ended even Sunak did too
The war and 08 I would say were / are more necessary but no one wanted to hear the downsides for the pandemic approach, so depressing
StatisticallyChallenged · 12/10/2022 09:11
Eyesopenwideawake · 12/10/2022 08:48
I haven't worked in UK finance for almost 30 years so forgive a dumb question - are DB pensions still available? I thought most employers had phased them out as being too expensive?
Most have, but some are still open to existing members and others, whilst closed, still have to manage and maintain the commitments they already have. Takes a long time to get rid of a DB scheme. Some companies did buy ins/outs where they effectively paid an insurance company to take over the liabilities but doing that was expensive - especially in low interest rate times - so not really available to underfunded schemes.
ClaudineClare · 12/10/2022 09:12
Fenella123 · 11/10/2022 22:49
Pension funds have borrowed money and used Government bonds (aka gilts, basically chunks of debt) as security.
But, the bonds date from when interest rates were low. Interest rates and inflation are higher now, so buyers will pay less, now, for a bond that only pays (say) 1% interest.
The companies that lent the pension funds money have a bit in their agreement that says, "if the bonds you're using for security drop in value below such and such a price, you have to pay us money to make up for the fact that the 'security' is worth a lot less". Maybe the loan even gets called in in its entirety.
So where are the pension funds going to get that extra money from?
By selling some of the bonds they own...and so the prices of those bonds drop a bit more (the bond buyers know they NEED to sell, so will pay as little as they can).
So the remaining bonds they own drop a bit more in value and ooooohhhh look a nasty downward spiral right!there!
Bank of England goes, "whoa Nellie let's not see the Teachers' Pension Fund" (or whatevs) go bust" and starts buying bonds, which means the prices of those bonds go up, which puts a brake on that downward spiral.
The teacher's pension is unlikely to go bust though, as public sector pensions are funded by the taxpayer? Is that correct? I guess the government could run out of money to pay public sector pensions, but that would be even ore catastrophic.
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