CMS Tribunal

[Lioness100]

I am posting on here for input as I know AIBU gains a fair amount of conversation/advice…I don’t think for one second I’m being unreasonable but I know the ‘2nd wives club will’ 🤣. Oh to not expect two parents to financially support their child. Why wouldn’t they? The entire UK child support system is set up by men for men. It is also set up to fulfil legislative nonsense and not ‘burden’ the system, NOT provide for the living little beings in it that the legislative principle that the “Welfare of the Child” under the Child Support Act 1991 should be at the centre of ALL decisions.

The system itself has been utterly inadequate, not replied to variation requests/diversion of income requests, has ignored complaints. Blatantly not done the job, us as tax payers pay them for.

it’s soul crushing enough to have an NRP over 90% fathers to be so deceitful and not child centred to hide income and purposefully not pay child maintenance. In my case it’s a Ltd Company Director who’s set up their finances in a way the woefully inadequate CMS can’t calculate a ‘fair input’. To have a government system that not only supports this but facilitates it,actually takes the soul crushing to another level. It permeates every bit of your life, your well-being, your ability to patent effectively, by not allowing financial freedom to offer the same opportunities and memories and life experiences you could if you were not being financially screwed and controlled. It robs you and your children of the very basic human rights, to live freely of abuse and control.

With that in mind. I’ve just submitted my evidence to the first tier tribunal, for diverted income, unearned income and asking for the welfare of the children principle to be taken into consideration. My two big questions at this stage are;

1, It appears there is some clause here that the inadequate disgrace of a system could up the payments and my tribunal hearing will not go ahead- is this the case?- I’m fully committed to taking this to tribunal stage… so what if this happens? Do I instantly go for Mandatory Reconsideration again? What’s the process? I’ve just realised today this could happen, after submitting all my documents. It would be soul destroying if they came back and said, yes, we’ve upped the payments, so that’s it, tribunal isn’t going ahead… could this happen?😩.

2.Has anyone been successful in their tribunal for variation, unearned income and actually getting this amended? I’ve searched and researched and I find very little information on this of successful outcomes.

Please give me a good news story that these horrors that think it’s ok to neglect their children… because it is neglect…are not getting away with it 🙏

You, literally, started the thread by slaying the whole of MN.... Good luck...

Thanks so much for your input… are you part of the 2nd wives club? How did I slay the whole of MSN? Unless they are maintenance dodging, not child centred individuals? I feel sorry for any children in your care or in your periphery care. I hope they get the input they deserve from both parents who are legally required to support them… the system just needs people like me, that calls out your bullshit and the systems bullshit, to say, “hi 👋… resident parent here” we need financial input from both parents and we need legislation to back that legal right for OUR children to back that up. It should be basic human rights, decency and it shouldn’t even be a fight. Are you OK?

Hi Lioness
Just wanted to reply as I've been through this recently. My tribunal was heard four years after the original calculation, also for diversion of income. I requested a financial professional be present on the panel and once I received the response from the CMS I set out all my evidence concisely and clearly with reference to all the documents I had attached. I requested that the judge directed the NRP to provide evidence of accounts etc. and they directed him to provide all his accounts/bank statements related to the business.
The tribunal was heard online, and it was very efficient. The judge and the financial member had a day of reading beforehand and on the day they cross examined the NRP very thoroughly on all the points I had raised. I had the opportunity to question as well and speak about anything that hadn't been covered, but I had no need to. It only took a couple of hours.
Got the decision a couple of days later through the post and a diversion of income was ordered for everything I told them had been diverted.
My advice is, don't spend too much time worrying about it in advance, just make your case and send it off to them as it is a long wait. In my experience, the CMS were very little help and the only way I could get any response from them was by going through my MP (who was very good). In contrast, during the tribunal process, they carefully considered and investigated every point I raised.

Smartwatercrumpet did you get the maintenance backdated? Were you happy with the final calculations? Did the NRP even acknowledge the wrongdoing in diverting income away from the welfare of his children? Did the Tribunal acknowledge this wrongdoing? Have you had any success in recovering arrears and having new payments implemented and recovered?

The calculation from the tribunal was fair but they didn't get into the rights and wrongs of diverting the income. In my situation the CMS never bothered to consider the diversion of income variation when I put it in, only the additional income variation. This was a mistake that only came to light through the tribunal process despite me exhausting their complaints procedure. My case is now with the Independent Complaints Examiner regarding that. I'm still waiting to hear from the CMS with their new calculation but the original calculation the order overturns dates back over 4 years now so I'm pretty sure it will need to be backdated.

Thank you for your response. It’s ridiculous you are still waiting for backdated payments and payments to be recalculated. The tribunal should implement this straight away instead of handing RP’s back into the CMS circus to endure more of their incompetence. What do they think is happening to the children in the meantime. Could I ask how long did it take from you submitting your appeal to your tribunal being heard? And did you action the complaint with ICE during the tribunal process or did you wait until after? Thanks again for response, it’s really helpful!

Yes, it's frustrating that it needs to go back to the CMS as I'm currently still waiting for them to chase up underpayments that have been made for the last two months. However, there's only so much energy I'm willing to waste on chasing them up. I appealed to the tribunal 2 and a half years ago at which time I had already complained directly and then contacted my MP when I got no response. My MP's office was very good at repeatedly contacting the CMS on my behalf and I had several responses to my complaints via them, although the responses contradicted each other and I wasn't satisfied so I passed it on to ICE about eighteen months ago. ICE said it would take years for them to look into my case and I won't stand to gain anything but, on principle, I don't think the CMS is fit for purpose in the way it is run so I would like some accountability - my son will probably be an adult before he receives the benefit of the maintenance he's entitled to (if he ever does) - the timescales are ridiculous, my original application was four years ago.

Thanks again for your reply. That is awful! So the route set up to help you if you’re struggling to get a fair outcome for your children takes years! I thought by going the tribunal route things might get sorted in a maximum of a year, which is still ridiculous but 4 years!!!! Meanwhile our children have to live in real time, with their needs having to be met in real time while the NRP gets away with not financially supporting them. As if being in the CMS system wasn’t soul destroying enough, the avenue that should be a protection from the CMS and the maintenance dodging parent STILL can’t help. That’s certainly helped to manage my expectations. For once I actually thought I was going to get justice for the children and I. Off the back of this I’m going to involve my MP and ICE now rather than wait and have to start that process too. It really shouldn’t be this much of a fight. You have all my sympathy. Praying you get a fair outcome soon for you and your son.

Apologies just re read that. Can I ask why the tribunal took 2 and a half years?! I was under the impression I’d get a date in about 6 months and get a decision from there. Was it such a long delay because of covid? Or did the NRP appeal and further delay the process. Thanks again! Really helpful to hear from someone who’s been through the same shitshow.

Thank you. Fortunately I am in a position where I can support my son independently as I have never been able to rely on maintenance but it's not a fair system. Covid might have slowed it down a bit but I get the impression that's just how long it takes. It's been less than a month since the tribunal hearing so with a bit of luck the wait won't be too much longer. You have to exhaust the complaints procedure of the CMS before you can go to the ICE so I would definitely get onto your MP straight away. They did respond to my MP and gave me £100 compensation. It's good to manage your expectations with the tribunal process because it takes so long but they are fair in my experience... just put the forms in and then try not to worry/stress over it as you probably won't hear back for quite some time. CMS told me diversion of income variations were very rarely accepted but I get the impression they don't have the capacity to actually consider them properly.

I see, that is a ridiculously long wait. Everything crossed they are a bit quicker with this one, although as you say good to manage expectations as years of the shitshow of CMS has been stressful enough. They responded to one complaint a year ago said they’d get back in 7 days, didn’t respond, raised a second complaint, ignored. Definitely need my MP backing then. It’s reassuring that even after all that time the tribunal at least have helped you with a fair outcome. I imagine that psychologically that acknowledgement helps somewhat with all the injustice of the system and having an ex who avoids paying to bring up their own children. I really hope your son gets the financial support he deserves now. I imagine some of your delay would be down to CMS just not bothering to respond to the tribunal in the set timeframe- seems to be their common approach. Right, back to keep fighting with my MP on board. Thanks again 💐

Oh and I meant to say you’re right, I looked it up and variation/mandatory reconsideration requests are hardly ever successful, think the figure was less than 20% that’s another approach of CMS sending you on wild goose chases (like telling you to report them to HMRC) and also getting you to play detective and then reject all your information anyway! Because we’re not busy and disadvantaged enough as RP’s trying to work, run a home, manage the children and solely financially provide for their upbringing. Shitshow is actually a compliment to them. Again, thank you.

That pretty much mirrors my experience. Didn't bother responding most of the time. The most frustrating thing, after waiting over a year for them to look at a variation, I found out in the tribunal they'd never even bothered to look at it. It's a waste of time and energy dealing with them. The CMS had a representative there at the tribunal who didn't contribute anything. Luckily, the tribunal just take a fresh look at the decision and look at it properly. Good luck with everything and I hope you get the maintenance you should have been getting eventually! I think you're right that psychologically it's a helpful process to go through as I do actually feel listened to now.

This 100%. I think they're unsuccessful as the CMS just routinely reject them without looking at them properly. And it's a bit of a joke to pass people onto HMRC who actually will refuse to speak to you if you are a RP... they literally told me they have too many calls from RPs so have a policy not to speak to them and direct them to fill in an online form. It's a system that is set up to absolve NRPs from all responsibility and disbelieve, blame and gaslight RPs who are actually just trying to provide their children with decent opportunities in life. The assumption is we're all greedy, unreasonable and opportunistic. And you're right, the last thing you need when financially, emotionally and practically supporting a child on your own is to spend hours on hold to, being patronised by and sending unacknowledged correspondence to an incompetent service that has no interest in the wellbeing of the children it is supposed to serve. With regards to evidence, throughout the tribunal process you can ask the tribunal to direct the NRP to provide it and you can also ask for a financial professional to be present. I think this helped my case.

It really is awful, and a disgracefully common story. There should be someone warning RPs of all of this. There’s many articles about these maintenance dodgers and how the loopholes are being closed (dating back years) nope! Never happened, still loopholes being constantly exploited and CMS actually facilitating it. My advice would be;

submit a variation as soon as you know there is diverted and unearned income. Be sure to mention both diverted and unearned income in your variation form to catch all hidden income sources- chase up every week, as soul destroying as it will be as otherwise you’ll place your faith in a system that is broken and shit and doesn’t care about your child/children… you will be on hold for over an hour every time you phone, possibly cut off after an hour and have to start again, that happens often too.

Do not bother playing detective, contacting HMRC or doing any of the the other nonsense that should be their job, just provide what you can.

As soon as you receive your rejection (because you will) complete and send in the mandatory reconsideration form (within a month)

wait for that to come back rejected because it will! Now download the SSC2 tribunal form (you’ll find it on Google) and fill that in and send it off (within a month)

And now you’ve got a fighting chance of getting some justice and maintenance for your children.

I really hope this helps someone cut out some of the stress and time we have had smartwatercrumpet.

I have asked for a Forensic Accountant or professional Accountant to be present. I didn’t know I could direct them to the NRP for the information so that is really useful! Thank you! It’s really reassuring that you were happy with your outcome. Of course I want the maintenance to improve my children’s life chances but I also want to be free of this control and injustice, might be more valuable to my mental health/health than anything else. I really hope this is properly sorted for you and your son ASAP and you get backdated payments. You’ve waited long enough!

@Lioness100 Amy news? I may have to go down this route also?

Hi all
I'm currently going through the same experience, currently awaiting tribunal for diversion of income dating back 6 years. I'm relieved to hear smartwatercrumpet's experience of a judge ruling in favour of division of income as from past experience, I've found some judges try to avoid making that decision. To assist those of us in the same boat, I wondered whether people could share examples of successful diversion of income rulings. For example, was diversion through a partner/spouse awarded? Was diversion through excessive pension contributions awarded? Was diversion awarded in relation to other questionable company expenditure?

I think I’m at the very beginning of this process. Can I ask, did all of you that have taken/are taking it to tribunal have the ‘Fraud Investigation Team’ (re.additional and diverted income)look into it at the beginning of the process? CMS tell me that that’s the next step for me, so I’m wondering if you all had that, to no avail, then went on to Tribunal? Nobody seems to have mentioned this part of the process, so I was just wondering. Many thanks.

In my case after refusing for several months, the CMS eventually agreed to involve their FIU team who after two years, had changed lead officer three times, failing to tell me each time. I was led to believe they agreed with the diversion of income only to then receive a letter out of the blue closing the case with zero explanation and the CMS have refused to explain ever since (3.5 years ago and counting). The Independent Case Examiner (ICE) has since found that the CMS had wrongly destroyed all evidence and wrongly rejected the diversion of income. Instead, the case is now being dealt with via Tribunal some 6 years later after the ICE asked the CMS to process Mandatory Reconsiderations they should have processed several years ago. So in my experience, I would say the FIU is a waste of time, but I guess like with all things, it depends on who you get as an officer. I just hope the Tribunal service proves to be more reliable (but the waiting time appears to be years rather than months post-covid).

@Childfirst Many thanks. I might have to keep expectations low and prepare for the long haul by the sounds of it.