it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

Hands up, I personally benefit from the current policy as my kids are at private schools.

But I also think there's a pragmatic view about what a political intervention of this nature would actually achieve. A tick in the no-one has an unfair advantage column? It may be satisfying for some but there's a far wider remit of advantage in a capitalist society, and I don't think it would achieve it in reality.

State schools would have to absorb extra pupils. It's not just a straight £x per head calculation as that implies the current infrastructure could absorb the increase in pupils.

I can only speak for my local state schools but they're already at, or arguably exceeding, capacity so they'd need to build new schools. Not only is that costly but, where I live at least (near London), it's not easy to find sufficiently large plots of land. They're struggling to find plots just to build a few houses. I suspect that makes the net cost would be far higher than the assumed VAT revenue gain > net cost of the extra pupils to the state.

I believe (though correct me if I'm wrong) that private school teachers tend to be paid more than in the state school. Given school budgets are squeezed, that means a drop in salary for those teachers, and a drop in income tax revenue. Some may decide not to stay in teaching, which wouldn't help the shortage in teachers.

The friends I know with kids in state schools pay tens, if not hundreds, of thousands more to live near the outstanding state schools. They also pay for extra tuition. Their privilege buys them an advantage, it's still not a level playing field. I suspect this situation would be exacerbated further if you add in some ex private school parents also wanting to be near the best schools, but perhaps with deeper pockets to achieve it.

I honestly think it's not particularly well thought through, as tempting as the proposal may sound to those who can't afford private schools.

@MissHavershamReturns - well that is good for you that you can afford the increase, but what about your kids’ friends parents who can’t? Are you happy for them all to leave? Are you happy for your kids to go to school with just the super rich? Are you happy for more middle class kids (doctors, teacher’s kids) to not have access to the school anymore? Are you happy for the average IQ of the school to probably deteriorate further as the pool of kids able to go shrinks further?
As a parent of kids in excellent state schools I am not happy with this. Our schools are already super competitive and overcrowded. Personally, I would probably benefit as it will push my house price up even more as we are also in catchment for an excellent comp (after lots and lots of middle class parents pushing for it to be opened with the council and coming up against tons of local nimbyism for years before that). However, I cannot get on board with a hate policy that is counter productive for all in the short term. Now is not the time for wide sweeping educational reforms. There have been bloody far too many in the last 20 years. Post Covid world I just want more pay for our teachers and TAs and other staff and some Refurb and heating costs met. Enough text books and help for kids with SEN and mental health issues. Bit more sport. Not some big changes that will invariably affect all of us.

Why not let the government focus on helping those really in need and let non-profits provide education, childcare, elderly care for those who can contribute?

Doingprettywellthanks ·
Anyone else admit to being a complete hypocrite?
However I went to private school and enormously benefited and… so do my children

You obviously don’t disapprove that much or you wouldn’t educate your children privately. You’re like those people who say flying should be banned …….but I fly abroad every year for my holiday.
If you really disapprove why don’t you do what MrsBennet has done and try to improve the local state school?

'What is the government doing with all that money!?’

This is the question I constantly ask myself. The tax take is large and yet things are falling apart. Where is the money going? (And no I do not believe it’s all spent on a few thousand people in dingies being given penthouse apartments at the Dorchester before anyone pipes up). I have zero faith that the money raised from VAT on private schools will result in state schools becoming much better. It will fall into the void.

Not taxpayers money as they’ve never had the VAT take. It’s not like it’s been removed.

20% will bring in less income than it will cost the government to educate these children in the state system.

it will lose, not gain.

The issue of what happens with the money once it is raised is totally separate. We could ask the same question about all our taxes. The point is that the VAT should be added. Why should private schools, which are effectively businesses in all but name, be exempt? The fact that they don't record profits is purely an accounting mechanism. Yes, staffing costs etc. are high but do you really think these schools exist without a financial motive?

Well, yes, I do actually. Who do you think is profitting from them?

Why should private schools, which are effectively businesses in all but name, be exempt? The fact that they don't record profits is purely an accounting mechanism

Because they are not businesses, they are educational establishments, and they don't record profits because they have none, they are all re-invested in that education.

They are not allowed to post a profit so the money that would have been profit is moved to capital expenditure and great sports facilities, theatres etc. are constructed. This is purely moving the profit element to building assets, which is still value creation in a financial sense.

And they pay VAT on those capital expenditures and other facilities.

Yes, so do businesses. And by extension they pay corporation tax too.

I can only speak for my school but I have the joys of sitting one such fundraising committee. Large scale new facilities are not paid by income from fees, they're paid for by raising money from school events, donations from alumni and partnerships with professional sports teams.

Two of my friends are a head and bursar and the majority of the schools they've worked at haven't been swimming with excess money, they're struggling to keep afloat.

This 👏. Exactly our reasoning for wanting to send DD private and is a similar financial situation as us too.

Having seen a huge difference in what a prep school for my my two DDs. One went at 7 the other at 10. It’s like night and day! Don’t tell me exactly what they do differently but we came from a pretty outstanding state and it’s not the academics. Their confidence, motivation, self belief - just their whole ‘buy in’ has changed. They love going to school each day seeing their friends and doing thru lessons and clubs. They loved their last schools but I absolutely did not see the delight in their faces that I see now.

Well, exactly, the money goes on teaching facilities, running costs and salaries (although, as somebody pointed out, much of this has to be raised on top of fees), not into somebody's back pocket .... perhaps we have a different idea of what 'for profit' means ... 🤔

If they do introduce VAT then does that also mean the schools are no longer obliged to fund bursaries? That could cancel out the increase.

That is sad

Some schools offer major bursaries to over 100% (so it covers uniform etc too), there are so many in the schools whose lives are impacted by bursaries

Plus outreach in the community

Maybe private schools will think great we don’t have to deal with all that anymore just the super elite but what a loss for society and learning between sectors

Possibly. Then that talent would stay in local schools whose results would reflect accordingly. And the results of the indies would suffer in tandem.

That's strange. Do you think a student attains the same level of success in spite of the school they go to?

Private education is proven to give people massive advantages regardless of their abilities. On average, far more academically poor/mediocre privately educated kids reach the top of their chosen fields than do exceptional state educated kids. The evidence is overwhelming from both the UK and internationally

I often wondered if I was rich enough how I would handle the opportunity to purchase a hugely unfair advantage for DC. I might have to be a hypocrite and send them to private school while campaigning to have private education abolished to assuage my guilt!

It is sad, but do you think parents are going to put up with paying for a school place they don't use through taxation, and pay for a school place for other children in the same school through school fees, and pay VAT on top of that?

If you have the wherewithal to get your dc a bursary you aren’t just sending them to local dire comp if the bursary no longer exists. It would be selective or religious state.

Possibly. Then that talent would stay in local schools whose results would reflect accordingly. And the results of the indies would suffer in tandem.

Except academic results are only one of the bursaries our school offers, with bursaries also offered in drama, music and sport. Their talent might also be welcomed in state schools, but that's assuming that they play, let's say, hockey, rugby or lacrosse.

While my kids go to a private school, I went to a state school. I think the focus on penalising private school parents isn't helpful, it's more productive to focus on other things that can be done to help state schools. It will pay greater dividends, particularly in the short term.

Some of the posts here smack somewhat of the green-eyed monster. I had no interest in what the local private schools were doing and focused on getting the best grades at the school I was at. My state school education (and being a woman) have helped my career, not held it back. as employers desperately wanted to increase their state school quotient.

That's just a really cynical way of framing the fact they they get the best out of their students.