it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

Nice try, CCHQ, but you're going to have to do better this 😂

For everyone else: historically private schools have been treated as charities for tax purposes, because English charity law pre-sales state schools and so private schools were providing a useful service. They are obviously no longer providing something that's actually needed and so it's very clearly wrong that they should get a tax advantage over other businesses.

The law has already changed in Scotland and the sky has not in fact fallen in.

If you have £5k to spend on school fees you have far more than many people do to be able to spend that

£10k, £15k £20k plus you are wealthy in comparison to the vast majority

im quite certain the money shall be found (I hear so much of how money is squirrelled
and saved to pay for fees nonsense in the playground I’m quite sure for most it will be magically found again)

If all the parents took their children out at once (private schools were abolished) I expect that the better schools would be brought into the state system and the children would stay on.

teachers, buildings and systems would remain in place rather than suddenly be an extra resource elsewhere, I’m just guessing as we all are, just seems like the most likely thing.

teachers, buildings and systems would remain in place rather than suddenly be an extra resource elsewhere, I’m just guessing as we all are, just seems like the most likely thing

Again, google Friends School in Saffron Walden and see how a local government had the chance to take over a closing private school with amazing facilities and didn't, and it was sold to be houses, with no adjustment made for the extra school places for these incoming families.

I am going to vote Labour regardless but I am not on board with this policy. We need some selective schooling and schooling outside the very narrow national curriculum. If they want to open lots more grammar schools or at least grammar streams in all comps then I can get on board with it. However, my academically gifted children would not have been happy in the local London comps. They just are not academic enough for them. We need schools that offer Latin, multiple modern languages, additional Maths GCSEs etc. Our grammars offer all of that - some of it like Latin is payable as an after school club. Standard GCSEs are just not going to cut it for all kids. Every kid deserves to be challenged and supported including the top ones and those at the botttom. Bunching them all into one size fits all just doesn’t work beyond a certain age.
And although it is entirely anecdotal, at least where I live, those using private at secondary level are the super workers (ie. Those with 2 City jobs, both parents’ consultant doctors etc) - they just don’t have the time to support their kids at home with extra curricular nor academically so they have chosen the independent to provide the “full package”. If you take that away from the super workers in London then I am not sure what will happen. I am not sure my consultant doctor neighbours can afford another 20 per cent for their 3 DCs. And yes, they could have gone to our grammars as they are all really bright. The parents are paying so the kids do music and sport and everything at school. And they are key workers of which there are shortages and they are paying top tax rates.

@Popgoestheweaselagain Lack of connection to reality?
It was you who needed to ask about the specifics of what was so horrendous about what the Government has done in the last week, remember? 😂
The crux of this is that how you manage to pay VAT on your private school fees is really not that significant on the grand scale of things in the country at the moment and whether Labour is a viable alternative rests on much more than your school fees. If the economics on a private school decision are so tight that VAT pushes people over, then maybe there was insufficient contingency planning done before making a long term decision. Private schools losing charitable status has been a point of debate for a long time so it really should be factored in to affordability calculations.
Of course nobody is saying you are responsible for starving children but your lame joke about them is crass and vacuous when children starving is a real concern in our times.

Education is not a luxury. Paying for education privately, when the state already provides it, most definitely is.

@robertpaulson

Op is probably taxed shedloads on her salary already. Honestly people are just envious. Pure and simple.

By that argument, we should abolish VAT! If so, how will you find the £132bn this raises in revenues?

Because they don't fully grasp what would happen if private schools closed, or if all the parents pulled their kids out.

Adding VAT to school fees won't cause all private schools to close. Most parents would simply absorb it. Some wouldn't even notice. Some would cut back on the second skiing annual trip, and some would have to make some more significant budgetary changes. Yes, it may be the straw that breaks the camels back for some, but given most private fees are £15k year plus, it would take the VAT from just two private school fees to pay for a state school pupil.

Can't entirely agree with you on that one. There are plently of people who work really hard just to keep their kids afloat. Being able to afford private does involve an element of good fortune. It's just not a dawdle for most people either.

Actually what I don’t like about the policy is because it shafts the middle classes who can only just make the fees. I don’t want a Labour government that plays off the working classes vs middle classes and leaves the super rich elite alone. The super rich elite won’t be affected by this. I fully agree the education system in England is divisive and not great but unless we really abolish all church, grammar schools and independents how is bringing down one sector a little bit, drop by drop going to actually work. In London at least, where the economy supports the rest of the bloody country many professionals pay for independent schools and huge houses prices and live in an overcrowded city etc all for the benefit of the rest of the country financially. So shafting those workers and their kids is mind boggling to me. I don’t think it will make the country more productive and happier in the short term. So I think it is a daft policy.
Education has been decimated by Covid, now is not the time to mess with it further other than provide more funding to state schools.

Do you and OP honestly believe all people who send their kids to private schools are loaded?? Honestly.

Not been funny but everyone's ideas of luxory varies check the recent thread. My DC goes to state school but the fact that someone can afford pri ate school and I can't doesn't upset me.

Horses for course.... my DC travels yearly though infact we are currently away now. You can't assume people's earnings/outgoings.

Plus it is a bit of a hate vote winner anyway, a bit like bloody Brexit. So I just cannot get on board with it, despite being a Labour voter and liking Keir Starmer. I think he should be better than this. I think we need to celebrate education in this country and it is something UK is known for. Not bring it down further.

I agree with this, our state schools and teachers are under significant pressure already. If the people who can afford private school fees can’t anymore then it will just mean less teachers jobs and higher class numbers for everyone. I can’t see why that is a good thing.
We need more schools - private and state in my area. There are people driving many miles every day to state and private schools because there are no places nearer.
I had no idea this was a labour policy. I learn something every day.

Absolutely

It’s so frustrating he takes quotes etc from Blair but not this simple lesson

We don’t need to tear people down

Independent schools don't charge VAT if their business is not-for-profit. I.e. they charge for all their expenses, but not to make profit for the owners. They don't need to have the charitable status for this (and some are not charities).
If you change the rules for the schools, the change will also apply to the university fees - they will all go 20% up.

As a result, the private school education will become even more elitist. Higher education will be less affordable (also more elitist).

It will not magically improve state education. People with money will keep supplementing their childrens education outside of schools. House prices around outstanding state schools will go up a bit more. The divisions and inequality will remain.

The growing enequality is a big problem. It should be addressed, but it's so much more complex then VAT on private schools' fees.

A healthy independent school system is a vital defense against tyranny. It would be to the detriment of everyone in the country if we handed sole authority for the education of future populations to the government.

Private schools only educate about 10% of children and it's the system that works well.

Why change what works instead of fixing what is broken?

Depends what you mean by shedloads. Not the highest rate. Of course, then there's NI on top of that, a lot of stamp duty because property prices are high. I don't resent it. But it's enough to think that the real question people should be asking is 'What is the government doing with all that money!? Why is our local school so c**p? Why can't it pay its heating bill'. In other European countries the transport system is very accessible and relibable, so everybody uses it. The local schools are good. So everybody uses them. Pre-school eduation is highly valued, so people want to qualify as a nursery teacher and everybody wants to get their kids into the system from one year old.

“Regional variations in the numbers attending independent schools are huge: 4% in the whole of Scotland, but 25% in Edinburgh; 10% in the South East but 13% in London. Some 20% of all UK sixth formers are in independent schools.”
guidetoindependentschools.com/key-independent-school-statistics/

Let’s shaft Edinburgh and London then, right. The economic power houses of both countries.
Some people choose not to send their kids to the comp in London because of knife crime, gangs etc. primarily. Let’s shaft those parents. Let’s cause another mass exodus out of London to the leafy home counties and lower productivity further (and let the rich internationals buy up the rest of London). Let’s push more women into less work because the commute becomes too much. Feeding straight into the conservatives hands.
So I say Labour should scrap this policy immediately. The Cons only really still have the grey vote still these days, don’t turn the middle class professionals towards them. Because when it comes to their own kids people put them above their principles.

COVID was an important factor in furthering division. People found they couldn't trust the government to provide education for their children, so anyone who could afford to pay moved their children to private schools where high quality online learning is guaranteed in the event of school closures.

It is very simple for me. People like me who privately educate should always have that right. However we should NOT expect the taxpayer to subsidise us which is why the VAT exception should go. The schools should not be charities.

These tax breaks should never have been there and they are completely unjustifiable.

Really interesting nobody has come on to say 'Nah, I could easily pay another 20% I'd just sell my holiday house'. Guess those people are keep quiet! 😂

This. Private schools are not charities and never should have been. Definition of charity: an organization set up to provide help and raise money for those in need. This is simply about private schools being classified in line with what they really are and paying their way accordingly.

I think the reason is that the charitable status rule goes back to a time when state-funded education was non-existent or patchy. Charitable status means that they cannot make a profit. Any fees or donations have to be used to further the educational mission of the school.

I don't think it makes much sense to say that the taxpayer is subsidising the project. It doesn't cost the government anything and, in fact, saves them having to pay for more state-funded schools. I actually like the model and think we should go down this road for eg. old people's home and nurseries. Would make childcare and care of the elderly better quality and more affordable.