it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

@Antarcticant agreed. Having 20k pa left over after you've covered your outgoings is the privilege of the wealthy. Most people don't have anything like that.

I think they are relatively wealthy. Not rich, i agree, but still very privileged.

If the sahp has the luxury of being able to live in an area where the other partner's £45k salary enables them to live in a 3-bedroom house while choosing not to work, then they are likely to be relatively better off than the majority of other people in their community. lf they then choose to go back to work and spend their earnings on private school fees, then again, that means that they're likely to be better off than most in their community because they are able to make those choices.

Being a sahp because you don't need to work is a luxury. Paying private school fees is a luxury. Being in a position to afford expensive luxuries means that you are privileged, even if you have to sacrifice other luxuries in order to make those choices.

The material point is, a lot of people don't have choices. They don't get to choose between being a sahp and sending their kids to private schools, because frankly, they can't afford either.

This!

Erm, you were the one who started making it about my privilege.

Anyway, back to the point. It seems that a lot of private school parents feel that they cannot afford to pay VAT. I guess their kids can go to state schools instead then 🤷

No dude you mentioned this

I think the idea is there is more chance they have the ear of power or have a voice that might be heard. My MPs children go to private school and he went to private school. He held a cabinet post not so long ago he could literally sit with the PM and say this isnt good enough. But its not just the children of mps, but journalists, industry leaders, broadcasters, royalty - people that get listened to. Im not sure if it would work in practice or not

AntlerRose plenty - most, even, of Labour MPs children go to state school. These people have power and influence and the ear of power.
You mention journalists - certainly Polly Toynbee and Alan Rusbridger who worked for the anti private school Guardian, both sent their children to private school.
I’m not sure the governors of schools would be too pleased at a lot of arrogant rich parents coming in and telling them what they should be doing so maybe it wouldn’t work.

Anyway, back to the point. It seems that a lot of private school parents feel that they cannot afford to pay VAT. I guess their kids can go to state schools instead then 🤷

this we will agree on.

State schools can't even afford to heat at the moment so don't think you will get the answers you are looking for on this thread.

If you can't afford to privately educate your kids, maybe you shouldn't have had them.

🤔

pigcon1 ·
I’m not clear - is this about private schools or about people who are wealthy (paying the highest rate of tax)? If we’re aiming to get everyone to check their privilege then those mixing with Etonians past and present might want to start there.

Yes indeed, but Mrs Bennet has said that although she knows Etonians she doesn’t like them so that exonerates her.

It’s a luxury. They shouldn’t get tax breaks.

I guess their kids can go to state schools instead then 🤷

Exactly - and, the significant sum saved in fees/VAT could still be used towards educational advantages for the children, to top up the state school offering - private tuition, summer schools, drama/dance/sports classes, that kind of thing.

Phew - glad that’s cleared up 😂

Wrong. According to the ONS, the average UK full time salary in 2020 in England was £39,452 which is not far off my example. Pretty average i.e not wealthy.

I know this is Mumsnet where it's fashionable to insist that anyone who isn't beating the bailiffs back with a stick doesn't understand poverty and must denounce their privilege, but in reality most people aren't in that position.

That doesn't make most people wealthy, just average.

Exonerates me from what, exactly?

As I said above, I don't think it's particularly relevant here, but I'm perfectly happy to acknowledge my privilege. I grew up in a stable home with educated parents, have an Oxbridge degree, and have a successful career - of course I'm fucking privileged, so what?

And yes, I know a lot of people who went to big name private schools, some of whom have chosen to send their kids to big name schools as well. Some of them are absolutely delightful, but it's true, none of the Etonians are really my type, hence that wouldn't be the type of environment that I would aspire to for my dc. Again, so what?

Not read the entire thread but I’ve read a good chunk of it. Wow - lots of MNetters hate private schools! Fair enough. It sort of surprises me that the most common narrative seems to be that parents who use private schools are somehow cheating and giving their kids an unfair advantage.

But plenty of parents pay for tutors - is that the same kind of ‘cheating’?

I do send my kids to private school, yes. But I don’t primarily see it as giving them a head start or an edge; I think they’d do just fine academically in a state school. It’s not so much about outcome or future; it’s about now. Being in a private school is a nicer experience, by and large. Smaller classes, more activities, nicer surroundings. I’m not ashamed of wanting that for my kids.

For me, the school experience is worth paying for. I’m not just paying for results; I want my children to enjoy school. And the state schools near us are not pleasant environments.

It’s hard to afford, but we have fewer foreign holidays than most people I know. We have no spare cash to speak of once the fees are paid- but that’s our choice.

MrsBennet okay you’re rich and privileged - just the sort of person who according to other posters should be improving state education (I still don’t understand why rich parents, as opposed to not rich parents, are supposed to be a magic wand for state schools’ improvement.)
Have you managed to improve your dc’s school?

I always find these threads interesting. If these kids were not in private school they would have to find spaces for them in state education, we all know the education system is under massive pressure, and this would also cost government money.
The parents also pay taxes for education their children will never use.

I have worked in private education and can say some parents are working so hard to fund, go without and not all have loads of money.

Anyhow, we've got kind of off topic. The original question was: can people who pay private school fees afford an extra 20%, or will schools close if this is implemented?
Some will, some won't.
I know/know of quite a range of people whose children are being educated privately, ranging from those who can barely afford it and would have no prospect of finding another 20% to those who probably wouldn't even notice if their accountants didn't mention it. Some people would be adversely affected by a change in policy of this nature, others wouldn't, as is the way with more or less any change.
I would hazard a guess that some smallish, less prestigious independent schools whose pupils are mainly the children of local professionals and small business owners would go under, whereas the big names that cater more for the very wealthy would be largely unaffected. But then as a PP said, the current economic climate is likely to be putting pressure on those same schools now anyway. Two such schools in our immediate area closed in the 2008/9 recession and I heard of others in the county closing or losing lots of pupils and laying off staff.
If a family is only just able to afford the fees as it is, then the rising cost of living may well tip it over to being unaffordable. Fees are likely to go up too as things like the increased cost of heating will presumably have to be passed on to parents. That will lose pupils and potentially lead to closures.
I think if I was concerned about family's continued ability to pay school fees or the survival of my independent schools I'd be more bothered about present government policies and things that are really happening in the world right now rather than theoretical policies of a government that doesn't yet exist.

I don't suppose that those who are arguing that VAT should be applied to school fees voted to remain in the EU? Because under Article 131 of Council Directive 2006/112/EC, all forms of education must be VAT exempt. So if we hadn't left the EU, Labour wouldn't be allowed to apply VAT to fees. Moreover - for those of you who'd like to ban them entirely - under Article 14 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, people have the right to found their own schools, in order to teach in line with their religious, philosophical and pedagogical convictions.

Many posters are making a distinction between state education as a necessity, and private education as a luxury. I wonder if they would be in favour of applying VAT to Tesco Finest sausages, on the basis that they are a luxury product compared with the Tesco Value range.

Applying VAT to education will just price out the middle classes, the elite will find a way to maintain their position - they always do.

I get that-who wouldn’t want a nice experience for their kids. It’s a far nicer experience to drive a Bentley than a Fiat 500 but you wouldn’t expect a tax break for doing it.

I’m not talking about it from their perspective but mine.

They use private and still pay free up room in an over burdened system - that can be good

Great. I don’t feel any level of unfairness that means I want that to change.

But labour havent been in power for quite some time. The tories are listening to tories and tory voters.

State education doesnt appear to be a high priority to this group. It could be because they have other options. I believe that is the theory of people who want everyone go to a state school.

I dont think when people say this they mean bob the accountant or plumber single handly tells the governors of a state school how to raise standards.

Well, indeed - I don’t expect a tax break for doing it. But I also don’t see it as ‘cheating’ any more than people buying a house in the best catchment area or hothousing their kids for the 11+

Fact remains that I won’t be able to afford a 20% rise in fees! It won’t happen though. Labour have been harping on about private schools as long as I can remember, and they didn’t do anything drastic about them when they were in power…

That example would mean the fiat 500s were being given out for free though. Those who buy the Bentley save us the cost of a fiat 500. We should encourage more people to buy Bentley's.