it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

@Dorisbonson the state would define what those professions and courses are and then rest are luxuries?

Yep, STEM, medicine etc. We need to train the next generation in the skills and capabilities that will be needed in the future. Big companies already do this, why should the state take a different stance? We absolutely should be encouraging and subsidising training when there are skills shortages.

I’m sure the government funding that the child would receive for state school place just get thrown crack into the pot
they employ people creat demand for a supply chain all this already makes revenue for the government

think it’s just a case of as a country we hate anyone with more than us or have done well for themselves depressing

I don't like the culture. The ethos or the types of people it tends to develop. I want more for my kids, more awareness, humility and "real" life. That's a choice.

Which culture? Not all private schools are the same. You sound ignorant.

From the perspective of the vast majority of the population, private schools are already populated by the super-wealthy. It is unfair to those who can't afford it now. By its very nature, people sending their children to private school are buying them an advantage in life. I couldn't care less if the slightly less "super wealthy" people get priced out of them. The margin by which people can afford to buy privilege for their children makes no difference to the vast majority who could never afford it.

And VAT registered businesses get to reclaim the VAT. Private schools pay VAT which they can't reclaim.

Yes unfortunately the cost of providing university tuition is vastly more expensive these days. Universities make a loss on education british students and charge international students more to balance the books. So your rose tinted view doesnt tally with the real world anymore. If you want to have a free university system what are you going to cut government spending on? Perhaps reduce NHS spending?

What an utterly ridiculous thing to say.

We don't all get a rebate if we don't use the NHS, we don't give extra state pension to families of people who die earlier than the average...

As a society, we pay tax on the basis of what we want for all of society. We all benefit from public services being provided for those who need them, when they need them. What kind of warped thinking wants to only pay for what they themselves benefit from. Where would that leave us as a whole?

As a PP very concisely pointed out - making private school fees more than they are now by correctly charging VAT ours them out of the reach of some people who currently pay but couldn't manage the increase. There would be plenty of people well enough off to manage the change. It's is exactly the same as the financial line in the sand being draw anywhere else. More or less people can afford it based on cost.

It only bothers those who are close to that line. Those who can't afford it now are not further disadvantaged, and those who can afford it however high the cost will tut and carry on. There isn't some magic point at which everyone is guaranteed to pack up and go home. (There is variety of far greater than 20% between the cheapest and most expensive schools in our area anyway)

I assume more parents use universities for their dc than private schools on this thread

Those that do intend to send dc to university are you ok with that extra burden for them to pay back?

No, they think everyone else should pay the cost while their DC gets the benefit of a better paid career.

The dire state of university funding and resulting student debt is definitely an issue but surely the point is that you can't buy into the privilege. Selection is on academic results. I think there are a couple of private universities but they are not the norm.

With private schools you buy your child better chances and create structural inequality in society which lasts generations. Affording a 20% uplift is irrelevant to a certain extent because the ability to purchase this luxury is just that. A luxury.

Are they going to put VAT onto university fees as well?

If they're privately owned institutions, then they absolutely should for the very same reason private schools should charge VAT.

People who buy expensive houses close to outstanding schools are also buying an advantage for their kids. Parents who send their kids to swimming, football, ballet or get tutors are also buying an advantage for their kids.

Should all clubs, tutors and paid for out-of-school activities also be band?

It would be a lot like the American system. Houses in school districts with good reputations would be out of reach for poorer families

Although it could also come to resemble the Japanese system where kids do much of their actual learning in cram schools (although this is largely due to lack of streaming)

Parents don’t really send their kids to university though do they. They decide to go themselves and most work, take loans themselves to go to university.

Sorry that was a totally irrelevant aside----

They have status as not for profit private schools so therefore every university would charge VAT under your system.

The point is, these things are taxable. Private schools are businesses and should therefore be taxed as such.

If everyone took their children out of private school and into a state school it would be wonderful. The current buildings could be opened up as state schools with a local catchment.

Google Friends School in Saffron Walden and see what happened with this. The area has had a massive population explosion, is one of the wealthiest areas in the country, and had the opportunity to rectify its school places issues by taking over the closing private school. It didn't. It facilitated its sale to a housing development company. A site with a massive building, a pool, sports facilities, massive fields etc. All knocked down for more houses. Fact: most private schools are old buildings and are too costly for state schools to maintain.

All those rich parents could instead contribute to state school fundraising events. Their obvious investment and involvement in their children’s education would aid state schools to improve facilities greatly.

No, I'd move to catchment, pay for tutors and extra curricular, take my DC on more holidays, and invest any spare money in property or save for uni fees. I would already be paying loads of tax to cover my own DC's state school costs. Why should I pay more?

There was one more comment about rich people not accepting low standards or cuts. How exactly am I going to achieve this? Do I just walk in, tell everyone my DH is an investment banker, get a bit stroppy, clutch my pearls and that will do it? Or, will I get the same reaction from the teachers that state parents get?

Honestly, I don't care if VAT is implemented. By the time it comes about mine will be out of school. The naivety of people over closing down private schools though is unbelievable. Some people seem to think that it is the answer to all of state schools problems. It's not. I have lived in 4 other countries to the UK, and schooled my DC in a couple of them. The UK successive govts just don't give a shit about our DC, that is the problem, and that is why I put mine in private in the first place. Just look at how you can't get your DC a NHS dental appointment. They just don't care.

Exactly this. Through bursaries and scholarships and heavy budgeting my dd goes to private school. There are loads of private schools with dc on scholarships and bursaries whose parents are at the very end of their reach to make up the difference. A 20% boost in fees would drive those children back into an already overburdened state system. Where are the teachers coming from? And the extra classrooms? Some areas are already massively oversubscribed, will their be new state schools being built?

The examples you gave of the NHS and pensions are where it's unknown how much of the service (and therefore the cost) will be in advance and can vary wildly through circumstances beyond the individuals control. These are areas which are rightly socialised.

Education is a fixed amount provided and is done so because the state expects a return on the investment as productive workers in 15 years time. If a parent saves the state that cost and on top of that produces a better educated worker then the suggestion that the parent should be rebated is perfectly reasonable.

That is true they take loans hence the question re their burden being higher

I think younger generations have been hit a lot lately and we need to not keep doing more of the same

Having said that I don’t know how many universities it would apply to

They can do whatever they can with the options available to them. Some will be able to put time and effort into supplementing their children’s education to great effect. Others will be unable to do that for whatever reason and their children will not receive the education they deserve from either their school or their parents. Should the former group be prevented from doing the best for their own children just for the sake of making sure they only get the same level of opportunity as the latter group?

Anyway, plenty of state school children already have their education supplemented by their parents. It has never meant that they are more worthy than children with parents who are less well off.

The UK private school system has so much to blame for the poor funding and management of education in this country. Whilst the richest and most powerful have no need for state education it takes away any incentive, they have to make it work. Countries were everyone goes to a state school mean all politicians, and their supporters work hard to make schools better. Because their kids and grand children attend them

Legally they are, though. The promotion of education is a charitable purpose in law.

Servicing your car isn’t a luxury either but you still pay VAT-and disingenuous to suggest businesses don’t pay VAT-if they’re VAT registered they charge VAT. Private schools are businesses so they should be VAT registered, not pretend to be charities. Maybe some of the VAT raised could bring up the state sector spending to be more comparable to a private school. You’re right-education is not a luxury-so giving people tax breaks so they can afford a more expensive one is not the answer.