it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

I am not ideologically opposed to private schools.

However, their VAT exemption is on the basis that these schools have charitable status, and that is where I have to raise an eyebrow. To qualify as charities, schools must "demonstrate that they are of public benefit". Letting the local state school use your swimming pool for lessons is not, in my opinion, enough to exempt a business from being required to charge VAT to their paying customers.

A couple of scholarships might be better, true; but I've never read about any private school doing ENOUGH charitable work to to make me consider them a charity. And if they're not a charity, why should they have charitable status?

No one is going to send their child to an utterly shit school and curtail their life chances while they have money sitting in the bank

TiddleyWink several posters have said they wouldn’t send their children to private schools even though they could afford it as they don’t approve of private education and presumably aren’t hypocrites.

Now tell us, with all this extra money you have due to not needing to pay out for private education, which charity do you give this vast sum of money to to make society fairer for all to align with your values?

It’s fascinating how many people here are stating ‘facts’ about charities and VAT. ‘Facts’ that are completely wrong.

They’re complex areas, I get that absolutely, but saying you know stuff when you’ve just had a stab, nah don’t do that. E.g “charities can’t register for VAT / charities cannot be in business”. Wanna bet?

Well, the reason we subsidse children's education (not just those belonging to us) is so they can become valuable worker bees, adding to society and bringing in the big bucks to keep the state going. Society puts value on procreation because we need new people to step into the job market so we can at some point step out and enjoy our golden years. Alternative is to work till we die unless we earn enough in our lifetime to fund private care and living expenses for the rest or our lives. I think contributing towards state schools is probably a bargain, comparatively.

Private schools should be stripped of their charitable status as they are not at all charitable. So yes, that means VATs should be paid like every other business has to charge.

Don't be ridiculous, public spending on education in the UK is about £1200 to £1700 pa per pupil. If the average is £1500 that means there is £4500 of added value between your £6k fees and the average state cost. This should be taxed as any other added value.

Additionally as charities private school pay 20% of local business taxes whereas state schools pay 100%.

To be honest considering your total ignorance if your kids get even a couple of GCSEs your getting great value for money, they'd obviously be completely screwed in a state school.

Private school is not a luxury - lots of parents send kids to private schools because they have SEN or undiagnosed SEN and need extra support not provided for in government schools. I never understand why people don't get it if a parent sends their child to a private school they still pay the same in taxes if they were to take up a government school place. If you took out all the private school children and put them in government schools there would be less money to go around government schools. It would be quite frankly stupid to discourage private school places and create yet another drain on the education budget.

But your argument works equally well (better if anything) for private education. Here you have these selfless parents paying out of their own pocket to ensure their little bees add the most value they can while costing the current tax payers zero.

Quick reminder for those trying to spout facts in support of Private system:

• yes there are 615000 students in private school BUT 60000 of these are international students who would NOT be in the state system in any scenario.
• people will STILL pay for private, there isn't going to hundreds of thousands leaving, people stretch for it because they believe in it - that doesn't disappear.
• 100% bursary students will not be affected, the school will take the hit from its charity sector which is VAT exempt no matter what...
• more students going into the system = better schools because = more funding.

I am not convinced that most private schools are run that well or lean enough. The government spend around £5000 per child in my borough for secondary school. Meanwhile the local private schools are charging parents £20,000-£25000. Seriously, 4-5 times more than the state school gets.
The state school gets help with refurbs etc . So where is all the money in the private school actually going? Surely they don’t have staffing costs 3x the state school? So it is going on buildings, ground maintenance etc, fancy sports, matches away etc. - that could all be cut down a bit if they don’t want to pass the extra costs on. When it becomes a question of survival, they will just have to budget a bit better. I do think a little bit private schools were in some sort of arms race for better facilities, staff to pupil ratio etc that really is not actually required.

hmmm but this argument would suggest that those in private schools are more valuable when in fact, they are just from lineage of privilege and perpetuate more issues - especially those from upper classes.

I was listening to Radio 4 last night, and a financial expert was talking about the effects of the current Conservative government's policies. The bond markets are in turmoil, and she said that some private pensions have just lost about 30% of their value. So, you have every right to be upset that private school fees might go up by 20% under Labour, but a lot of people will suffer under the current government.

Why would you need to know the specific charities I donate to? DH and I have chosen 4 charities (two local, two international) that we donate to monthly and have done for years. I also give some of my time to a charity on my non-working days. DH works longer hours than me but gives his time to a local charity as and when he can. I work in the public sector with vulnerable children and families and while I would never claim to be "making society fairer for all" (not sure where you got that from) I do what I can. Is that alright with you?

Just so we are clear is everyone wanting the unis to charge VAT too and thus increase student loans for tuition by 20% too?

No it doesn't. Those parents aren't doing it for society, but for themselves and their children. Private education reduces social moblity which is bad for society overall. It would be better (in a greater good way) to invest more in the public school system for everyone.

Popgoestheweaselagain you're not going to get much support on a mumsnet forum on this one. Private schools should be run as businesses therefore they should pay tax. All business pass on their costs to their customers (the parents in this case). However making it more expensive is not necessarily the answer as if many are priced out then state school places need to be found and we are short of those already.

Well, I think unis should be free for everyone. I don't think there should be an increase due to VAT, but I don't think there should be fees at all. Everyone should have a right to higher education if they want it. So no, you we are not "clear".

If private school is an optional luxury then surely VAT should also be charged on university fees? That is an option too. All the arguments relating to giving kids an advantage also apply to a university education too? That is a luxury too and it holds back those children who dont go to university.

Poor dc

Constantly being hit by older generations with higher costs

I'm actually quite surprised there isnt a chain of cheap no frill for profit private schools.

So vat on £6k school fees would raise £720 but it will cost on average £1,500 for the state to educate said child.

So if half a class of say 20 children in that one school left it would cost the state approx £8000 to educate those children

Also don't forget the school wouldn't then be the end consumer so could then reclaim any VAT that it pays.

You're proving my point very nicely by continuing to make this argument. So, people who have taken out a mortgage must be able to afford another 20% each year because they had enough money to take out the mortgage in the first place? Nobody would make such a stupid argument. Obviously, lots of people would have to sell their home. Not the worst thing in the world - as lots of people can't afford to buy their own home in the first place - but I never said it was.

Arguably the reason that the state can get away with not providing proper provision for SEN children is because there is an option for parents to go private.

An option that of course is not available to everyone with SEN children. Just becuase you can stretch (with difficulty) doesn't mean it still isn't a option for loads of parents. Again, inequality.