it's daft to think parents with kids in private school have money to burn?

[Popgoestheweaselagain]

Just got asked by my school what would be the impact if they had to pay VAT, adding 20% to fees. My response was 'I'd try to keep my child in the school, but ....'. I think almost all parents would respond this way. Alarmed, did a quick google, and found this is Labour policy. Next time they come knocking at my door looking for my vote, I'll be telling them why they can't have it!

Now, I understand why some people are ideologically opposed to private schools, the unfariness etc. But when I hear this argument that goes something like 'Those people must have loads of money because they send their kids to private school' it kind of annoys me. Money is finite. If you've spent all your money on school fees, you obviously don't have it anymore!

@Popgoestheweaselagain mortgages and private education are not same.

You send your kids to private school to have better opportunities in life. But don't you want them to grow and live in a better city, country, with less crime, homelessness, etc?

Labour wants to build country, invest in public services, better and cheaper energy for all. For this they need money, it will come from taxing businesses, individuals who can afford.

Maybe take a bit of financial hit in terms of increase in private school fees for a few years so that they can live in better society or if you cannot afford, send your kids to a state owned school.

Tory will only make this country worse.

Excellent post from teaklaxon.
Wanting a more equal education system is not 'whipping up hatred' or 'politics of envy'.
Labour has persuaded me, a middle-class voter who could afford private school. I actually was lucky enough to go to a private school myself, but the divisions between state and private can be life-changing and are inherently unfair. Labour is doing the right thing, I think.

I tutored my kids into grammars myself. I could do so because I only work part time because I decided I would rather spend time with my kids than pay the government 45% tax from my salary. I didn’t pay a huge amount of stamp duty as I bought a big run down house which I did up myself largely over the years. I plan to sell it and make a huge profit in due course, hoping it will still be CGT exempt. I have used my own intelligence to my advantage.

Meanwhile my colleagues who work 60-80 hours a week have paid for private schools. In primary, primarily because they can’t do after school clubs and needed wrap around care and clubs for their kids provided. They all work a huge amount and paid their 45% tax over many years. Their kids go on amazing school trips abroad etc. - often because the parents are too busy to holiday anyway.

My kids get an excellent education at the grammar for free. They all play 3 instruments and sports to a high level. They go to private schools like Benenden in the holidays to do high level county orchestras at a reasonable subsidised cost. They have all tried riding and skiing etc. They are no less privileged than my colleagues’ kids. In fact, I think mine might be at an advantage now when it comes to uni applications. We also have tons of kids in our schools with hard working immigrant parents who push their kids so hard academically and mine have sort of had to adapt to that.

My colleagues will openly say I did the right thing. However, they have contributed far more into the tax pot than I have. Who is moral and who is not? It really is not an easy answer. I have voted for labour all my life. I would like a good education for all kids. However, education in this country is very hit and miss. You really need to plan it properly for your kids whether state or private. Let’s face it - only the rich and clued up can do that who have options/assets. Someone at the mercy of a landlord/in social housing stands no chance. Unless they go to church for years and hope they don’t get evicted from the catchment area.

Should add, my school didn't just send me a random email asking for my opinion. This was only one question on an anonymous survey basically trying to get a handle on how parents are coping with the hike in fees in relation to heating costs etc. The 20% question I wasn't expecting - I know Cobyn had some scheme to confiscate private school land, a bit like the crown confiscated church lands 500 years ago, but I hadn't come across the loss of charitable status idea. My guess is private schools are gathering this information so that they have some evidence to present to the government of what the impact of this might be.

I'm not against private schools at all but I'm genuinely shocked that's it's vat free. Makes no sense to me at all

I suspect this policy will force many of these private schools to change their behaviour so they could have more of a claim to be charities and avoid VAT ie share sports/science facilities with local schools, offer expertise in shortage subjects and offer more scholarships for local children. Those who have very elitist parents would then just choose to pay more.

To all those saying it is a luxury - not quite true. I am British, despite having lived abroad for many years, as is my daughter. When we arrived back in the UK last year, even failing schools (not that I was keen on them!) would not give my daughter a school place. A private school did. We really struggle to pay this - we have no pudding and no holidays, plus other tightening of the belts - but its a worthwhile sacrifice to ensure she continues her education. Sometimes it's the only choice. Should education be considered a luxury?

True, but also worth pointing out that charitable status can allow certain purchases to be VAT-free. So “anything they purchase where VAT is due” would shift if charitable status was stripped.

Also, many private schools provide plenty of VATable supplies (lettings, external sports etc) and generally get a bit of VAT recovery.

As the VAT still seems to be escaping some posters-
www.tes.com/magazine/analysis/general/taxing-private-schools-truth-behind-bluster

Currently, schools pay VAT on their expenditure, but they do not get the option to reclaim VAT, as businesses do.

Independent schools send this VAT straight to the Treasury. If schools have to charge parents VAT on fees, revenues to the Treasury will diminish as VAT is reclaimed by these schools when they are operating, as the Labour Party will insist, simply as businesses.

Ah no sorry I meant statistically rather than in real terms! No quintuplets here!

I have seen that study quoted before but anecdotally I’m just not sure - I’m assuming the study takes into account just the 20% rise, and not the fact that we’re about to enter a huge recession with job losses, particularly in the financial sector where a large proportion of private school parents work. I know in the last financial crisis our school lost 40% pupils..and that was without any fee rise

The local authority has statutory responsibility to offer every child who needs one a place, so the only option being private is wrong.

If every overprivileged hedge fund manager, energy boss and MP suddenly had to send their child to state school, funding to vastly improve those state schools would be in place faster than you could blink.

None of the people you mention above would be bothered by an extra 20% on fees. Particularly not the hedge fund manager. So they won't be leaving private education. Instead, the pupils scrambling to find places at state schools will be children of middle earning parents like us who make lifestyle sacrifices for the fees (not complaining, it's our choice and yes I know lots of people can't make that choice). As someone above pointed out - the VAT gained won't match the cost to the treasury of providing the education to movers from independent to state. As also mentioned above, if these people could scrape the extra 20% together it would likely mean significant cutbacks in other areas on which they would have paid VAT, so probably not much of a gain there either.

I understand the principle of it, but I don't see how the costing of it could end up as a net positive.

My guess is private schools are gathering this information so that they have some evidence to present to the government of what the impact of this might be. I would imagine it’s so the next Tory election campaign can target you if enough of you are impacted.

Lower vat is a better idea 👏

You're asking this question on the wrong forum. Now you've found this out, you know which party not to vote for if you feel you're strongly against it.

@TheClogLady I'm in exactly the same situation. Put mine in private because of her ADHD and ASD and she is thriving. State schools are shit for ND kids. Quite frankly I should be getting a bloody rebate!!

I'm a single parent and private school fees are painful, but necessary!

YANBU to think it's daft to think that parents with kids at private school have money to burn. Clearly that isn't true. And people with sufficient disposable incomes choose to spend them in all sorts of different ways, and some people will choose to plough the lion's share of their disposable income into education.

I think you are also right to say that introducing a 20% additional cost to school fees overnight would be difficult and feel unfair to the people who were affected by it. (I think it's also understandable that there are people further down the financial ladder who would see that as a fortunate problem to have.)

But, ultimately, it seems to me that private schools shouldn't have charitable status and private school fees shouldn't be VAT exempt. I think there's a question about how you get there, and I don't know the details of the Labour policy on that, but overall I would welcome the change as fairer for the whole of society.

My point is that the co-located state schools benefitting from the local private school's 'generosity' in sharing its facilities are not exactly the struggling state schools in the first place, so it's not the saving grace it is portrayed as by those invested in making out private schools to be some huge and necessary benefactor of the state system. The fact you missed the point renders the rest of your rant a bit superfluous really. But it bears repeating that there will likely be another family whose children are still going to that poor state school you describe, still experiencing racism from teachers and pupils, whose parents with the best will in the world can't afford to pay the fees or the transport costs to 'save' their kids from it. So all your special pleading does is highlight the fact private school is not fair. The answer isn't for those families who can stretch to it to abandon the state system, as that still leaves the families who can't in the shit. The answer is to reform education to prevent the inequality.

@TeaKlaxon the NHS isn’t funded by adding VAT to private surgeries. It’s funded from income tax, and the other usual taxes.

If Labour want to improve state education, that’s brilliant! They can create a new wealth tax, or increase tax on second homes, or raise income tax etc. Or slash the defence budget, or increase taxes on alcohol and tobacco (the behaviour of drinkers and smokers costs the UK billions a year, far more than private school VAT could raise). There’s no need to add VAT to private school fees to improve state education, it’s a completely false dichotomy.

Let’s be clear: Labour aren’t attacking private schools to raise money, there are many many other ways to raise that money. They’re doing it to whip up class hatred, because they think that will attract back the ‘red wall’ voters they lost to Boris Johnson. They’ve forgotten that the whole country is listening. And they’ve forgotten that they don’t just need to recover their red wall voters, they need to win back the floating voters who, like me, were big Labour fans until the Miliband era and then were forced by Labour’s demented policies to switch to voting Conservative.

Anyone who wants a Labour government in the near future should be asking Labour to dump their anti-women and anti-middle class policies, as these are alienating millions of former Labour voters, and achieving sod all.

And for all those wanting VAT on fees. There wouldnt be any bursaries or any offering to the local community. I am out of this now as kids are grown up but the children's school offered local residents vastly reduced fees for access to the local health centre plus various large discounts on using the school premises. That would very likely stop and where are all this chidlren who will have to leave a private school going to go?

Well. Seeing as usually the min around my way for one child per month is £3500. That means you’ve got money to burn. You’d have to be earning at least 100,000k to afford that really

thats outside of London

Appropriate levels of staffing, smaller class sizes, more opportunities beyond a one size fits all curriculum is a lifeline to some children.

Yes. To some children. The ones whose parents can afford it. What about the ones who, skrimp all they like, will never have thousands spare each year to pay fees? Do their children deserve the environment those better off have managed to escape?

What happens when the local authority can't / won't?

We pay considerably less than that (thankfully!)

If more children then enter the state sector rather than pay tax for a space they don’t use how does it help other than a momentary feel good at taking away from others factor