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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Can a school insist that a child is moved to a special needs school?

65 replies

Faciadipasta · 27/09/2022 15:46

A child in my DC'S school, aged 7. Parent us being told the school dont have the support available and the child will have to.move to a special school. Parent doesn't want the child moved away from all their friends. Can the school insist? Obviously this isn't really my business but just wanted to offer this mother support and advice. Seems very unfair that the school can just wash their hands of a child like this.
For reference the child is not disruptive, and has no extra physical needs. Just requires extra learning support due to ASD as well as difficulties with handwriting and spelling for example. Don't the school have a responsibility to get the support in for a child with an EHCP?

OP posts:
2bazookas · 27/09/2022 16:37

Seems very unfair that the school can just wash their hands of a child like this.
For reference the child is not disruptive, and has no extra physical needs. Just requires extra learning support due to ASD as well as difficulties with handwriting and spelling for example.

With respect, you don't observe or assess that child in class with her peers ; the school does. Far from "washing their hands of her" they are saying that in their experienced professional view she needs more help. Its possible her adoring parent is somewhat blinkered by love and wishful thinking.

BeautifulDragon · 27/09/2022 16:39

They can't insist, but if the school are telling them they can't meet the child's needs I would believe them and consider options.

Mumofsend · 27/09/2022 16:44

Iamnotthe1 · 27/09/2022 16:33

tackled the LA to get her plan properly provisioned and subsequently funded.

This is a really important point. Most EHCPs have over-promised provisions but an underfunded level of support. Most parents don't realise that they can challenge the LA when these don't match and the LA banks on schools either "making it work" or quietly not coping.

Yes, it absolutely was the crucial bit in why it worked for my DD. Even down to things like having TA hours extra to do all the prep bits needed.

Goingforarun · 27/09/2022 17:01

Sometimes the reality of the child’s experience in mainstream doesn’t match with the parents perception. Just they find out exactly what he’s having difficulty with and what the school has done so far to support that and if they could talk to their child about what it’s like at the school and whether he’d be happy at school where more children were working at his level where he’d get more support.

Tillytina123 · 30/09/2022 20:18

Can any one recommend a special school in richmomd or twickenham private small surroundings for mild autism 12 year old boy

StripeyDeckchair · 30/09/2022 20:37

Places in special schools are like hens teeth - some parents fight for years to get one for their child.
If a child is offered a space then they must meet the criteria for attending rhe school. I would suggest the parent visit the school with their child and see what is on offer.

You haven't seen the EHCP (which are hard enough to get BTW) and don't know what the child's issues are. They might seem OK now however the gap may well get more noticeable as the cohort age making school life harder for the child.

I see children who have been offered a place in a specialist school in a standard secondary and totally unable to cope. This is because the parents want mainstream education for the child - I think its a form of child abuse.

KingCharlespen · 30/09/2022 21:19

FarmerRefuted · 27/09/2022 16:18

Some schools are notorious for off-rolling children by stealth and children with SEN are more likely to fall foul of this practice. DC old school would suggest special school to a lot of parents of children with SEN and/or disabilities, make a lot of noise about being unable to meet their needs, and would be deliberately difficult (e.g., disciplining children for behaviour related to their SEN, providing the bare minimum in support, not differentiating, refusing or withdrawing reasonable adjustments, etc). They could meet needs, they just didn't want to because they didn't want the extra work involved so employed all of these tactics to force these children out.

Very worrying. I work with an outside youth organisation and remember a VP explaining to us that two of our students had been suspended with a hope that they'd be permanently excluded. The other had a mother who "argued her case" and they'd have to bring him back.
The other boys were totally expendable.

Lancrelady80 · 01/10/2022 00:46

Places in special schools are like hens teeth - some parents fight for years to get one for their child.

This. We have a lovely boy in Y5 with autism. But last assessed at developmentally 18 months. Toilet trained in June, in nappies up until then. Needs a totally different curriculum - think occ therapy, speech & lang, sensory. Forget even the EYFS curriculum. It's nothing any of us were trained in and we have no specialists. EHCP in place but v woolly in terms of what to actually do with him - at present, he has a selection of toys various staff members' ch have grown out of. We do activities recommended by occ therapist but as they are couched in jargon eg develop vestibular skills rather than "use swing , soft play, wobble board" then we're in the dark.

He has a 1:1 (actually not HIS 1:1 - she is technically shared with another 3 children but his needs mean she has those others for v little. Lovely lady but again, no specialist.)

His needs are not being met as we have no practical advice. The head won't admit it because he brings extra funding. And although he has been discussed at special school panels year on year, there is never a place for him. His needs aren't considered severe enough in comparison to others.

Underhisi · 01/10/2022 06:56

School can tell the LA they cannot meet need but need to give one of 3 legal reasons. Not being suitable for mainstream isn't one of them.
LA then decides whether to name a different school. Child has a right to mainstream education but not in a particular mainstream school. It is very difficult to force special school and LA know that so rarely go there.
If a child has behavioural issues a school may force the issue by excluding. They may also put constant pressure on the parents.

Underhisi · 01/10/2022 06:58

And yes there are frequently no places in special schools. Some children are waiting for places for years and others who have been excluded are out of school for years.

TatumHigh · 01/10/2022 07:00

Lancrelady80 · 01/10/2022 00:46

Places in special schools are like hens teeth - some parents fight for years to get one for their child.

This. We have a lovely boy in Y5 with autism. But last assessed at developmentally 18 months. Toilet trained in June, in nappies up until then. Needs a totally different curriculum - think occ therapy, speech & lang, sensory. Forget even the EYFS curriculum. It's nothing any of us were trained in and we have no specialists. EHCP in place but v woolly in terms of what to actually do with him - at present, he has a selection of toys various staff members' ch have grown out of. We do activities recommended by occ therapist but as they are couched in jargon eg develop vestibular skills rather than "use swing , soft play, wobble board" then we're in the dark.

He has a 1:1 (actually not HIS 1:1 - she is technically shared with another 3 children but his needs mean she has those others for v little. Lovely lady but again, no specialist.)

His needs are not being met as we have no practical advice. The head won't admit it because he brings extra funding. And although he has been discussed at special school panels year on year, there is never a place for him. His needs aren't considered severe enough in comparison to others.

Take the LA to tribunal to get him into SEN school. It'll be a pain/expense in the short term, but it'll get your son a placement.

Over 95% of tribunal cases go in favour of the parent.

Goatinthegarden · 01/10/2022 07:26

2bazookas · 27/09/2022 16:37

Seems very unfair that the school can just wash their hands of a child like this.
For reference the child is not disruptive, and has no extra physical needs. Just requires extra learning support due to ASD as well as difficulties with handwriting and spelling for example.

With respect, you don't observe or assess that child in class with her peers ; the school does. Far from "washing their hands of her" they are saying that in their experienced professional view she needs more help. Its possible her adoring parent is somewhat blinkered by love and wishful thinking.

This. Where I teach, it is almost impossible to get a child into any sort of alternative provision, even if their needs are very high. Schools cannot just put children into specialist settings on a whim.

Inclusion is a lovely idea, but mainstream not always the best setting. Especially now we have such a lack of support staff. I teach upper primary and currently have a girl in her final year. Her behaviour is perfect; she is a lovely child who always works hard, tries her very best and really cares about others.

She cannot read, write, or communicate clearly. She has difficulty coordinating her movements and so physical activities are also a challenge for her. Her interests and understanding is very different to that of her peers. They have an obvious affection for her and are kind to her, but they do not play with her or engage with her unless paired up together.

She really needs 1:1 support all day, but we can’t offer that. She gets 4 hours a week. Her options for much of the school day are to sit at a table of peers, but work on her own tasks (so she is present, but not really ‘included’), or ‘join in’ with learning far beyond her capabilities. She has to have very different learning activities to the rest of the class. She is aware of this and her confidence and mental health is being damaged.

We have fought hard to get any kind of alternative education for her. All we have been offered is one morning a week in a special education setting. She LOVES it. She has made a genuine friend who has similar interests. They learn practical life skills and she gets to engage with peers working on the same academic tasks as her.

Lougle · 01/10/2022 07:27

"For reference the child is not disruptive, and has no extra physical needs. Just requires extra learning support due to ASD as well as difficulties with handwriting and spelling for example."

This can not be true. There is no way that a child who just needs 'extra learning support' would be offered a special school place. They are highly sought after and very limited. DD1 has been in special school since she was 4. She is now almost 17.

For a mainstream special school place to be offered, the child will need to have a learning disability. That doesn't mean their Autism - many children have Autism without learning disability. DD2 goes to an independent specialist school now because she couldn't cope with the mainstream environment. She couldn't go to a state special school because she doesn't have a learning disability.

Because of the special school environment, many children who were given 1:1 support in mainstream can be given independence in special school. DD1's schools have all been secure, so it didn't matter if a child took a detour on their way to their class because they were safe.

Underhisi · 01/10/2022 07:34

There are state special schools for children who have ASD but no learning disability but they are only in some areas and they tend to be filled with children who have exhibited problem behaviours in mainstream ( becoming distressed in school) or children who have parents who went to tribunal.

WhatALoadOfWankyness · 01/10/2022 07:34

From what you've said I don't think they'd reach the criteria for a special school
@Goatinthegarden , that's fucking heartbreaking, poor little girl

Wheresmymoneytree · 01/10/2022 07:40

We have a student that we can’t get into the school building. We can’t meet their needs, their parents agree, they have an ehcp already and we have tried to get them into a special school. They have never been inside the school building as a direct result of their needs. I have worked at my school for 10 years and have never known us say a child’s needs cannot be met before. They’ve been turned down a place. I obviously can’t give more details as it’s a current student.

If your friends child has been offered a place over the student I am supposed to teach then I would take it because they must need it! If it was a case of school just sending students they don’t want then they would be 10x bigger.

Blahdeebla · 01/10/2022 07:45

In our Borough, they will 'offer' a child borough - wide. If all schools say they can't meet the needs of them then the Borough will give them a place somewhere with extra provision or a special needs school, depending on the case. We had this recently with a child the nursery insisted couldn't cope with mainstream, but parents insisted they could.

AntlerRose · 01/10/2022 07:47

Lancrelady80 · 01/10/2022 00:46

Places in special schools are like hens teeth - some parents fight for years to get one for their child.

This. We have a lovely boy in Y5 with autism. But last assessed at developmentally 18 months. Toilet trained in June, in nappies up until then. Needs a totally different curriculum - think occ therapy, speech & lang, sensory. Forget even the EYFS curriculum. It's nothing any of us were trained in and we have no specialists. EHCP in place but v woolly in terms of what to actually do with him - at present, he has a selection of toys various staff members' ch have grown out of. We do activities recommended by occ therapist but as they are couched in jargon eg develop vestibular skills rather than "use swing , soft play, wobble board" then we're in the dark.

He has a 1:1 (actually not HIS 1:1 - she is technically shared with another 3 children but his needs mean she has those others for v little. Lovely lady but again, no specialist.)

His needs are not being met as we have no practical advice. The head won't admit it because he brings extra funding. And although he has been discussed at special school panels year on year, there is never a place for him. His needs aren't considered severe enough in comparison to others.

This is heart breaking. Do his parents have capacity to ask for an emergency annual review, get all his assessments re-done and go to tribunal for a properly specified and quantified ehcp if the LA hands back a wooly one? His review this year is a transition review so its where secondary school is considered.

x2boys · 01/10/2022 09:28

Lancrelady80 · 01/10/2022 00:46

Places in special schools are like hens teeth - some parents fight for years to get one for their child.

This. We have a lovely boy in Y5 with autism. But last assessed at developmentally 18 months. Toilet trained in June, in nappies up until then. Needs a totally different curriculum - think occ therapy, speech & lang, sensory. Forget even the EYFS curriculum. It's nothing any of us were trained in and we have no specialists. EHCP in place but v woolly in terms of what to actually do with him - at present, he has a selection of toys various staff members' ch have grown out of. We do activities recommended by occ therapist but as they are couched in jargon eg develop vestibular skills rather than "use swing , soft play, wobble board" then we're in the dark.

He has a 1:1 (actually not HIS 1:1 - she is technically shared with another 3 children but his needs mean she has those others for v little. Lovely lady but again, no specialist.)

His needs are not being met as we have no practical advice. The head won't admit it because he brings extra funding. And although he has been discussed at special school panels year on year, there is never a place for him. His needs aren't considered severe enough in comparison to others.

That poor child ,I'm. Not blaming you but my son has similar disabilities hes 12 and has always been in a special school ,everything is tailored to his needs they do flour writing ,take him on walks ,do activities teaching him life skills ,they have a flat at the school equipped with a washing machine, cooker etc to teach pupils some independence, they also have a hydro pool ,huge sensory room ,trampolines ,etc this is what he needs

ClocksGoingBackwards · 01/10/2022 09:37

No, they can’t insist that the child goes to a special school, but they can be truthful and say that they can’t support him.

They do have a responsibility to educate your friends son, but if he really needs a1-1 and lots of interventions and the school simply don’t have the money or resources to provide it, what do you expect them to do?

Is the parent already doing everything they can to get an ehcp in place? It’s not just up to the school.

catscutewhiskers · 01/10/2022 09:44

School do have the responsibility but honestly it's unlikely the child is in the right setting if school are suggesting they need a specialist setting. Most parents have to fight to get specialist.
The child has a right to a mainstream setting if the parents want it. It's almost unheard of for an LA to move a child against the parents wishes to specialist so I wouldn't be worried at all. Specialist usually costs more and the LA are money driven. However what's in the child's best interests- sounds like they won't be meeting their potential if school are saying they can't meet needs.

Novum · 01/10/2022 09:50

OhmygodDont · 27/09/2022 15:54

In theory no but what happens if the school truly cannot support the child to be in school and learning? Do you keep them there but fail them? If the la won’t hand over more money for more support. Tricky for both I guess.

But they aren't in that situation if they haven't even applied for an EHCP

Novum · 01/10/2022 09:56

2bazookas · 27/09/2022 16:37

Seems very unfair that the school can just wash their hands of a child like this.
For reference the child is not disruptive, and has no extra physical needs. Just requires extra learning support due to ASD as well as difficulties with handwriting and spelling for example.

With respect, you don't observe or assess that child in class with her peers ; the school does. Far from "washing their hands of her" they are saying that in their experienced professional view she needs more help. Its possible her adoring parent is somewhat blinkered by love and wishful thinking.

It's also possible that the school is wrong - unfortunately some schools are astonishingly bad at dealing with SEN and knowing what children's entitlement is, and/or simply don't want to bother. They have an ongoing duty to use their best endeavours to meet SEN. If they can't do it for resource reasons, they should be calling early annual reviews and strongly recommending amendments to the EHCP that will ensure the right provision is in place. They should also be calling in professionals such as educational psychologists for further advice. It is really only if a child needs support of a type that is unavailable in mainstream schools that a special school should be considered.

Novum · 01/10/2022 10:00

Lancrelady80 · 01/10/2022 00:46

Places in special schools are like hens teeth - some parents fight for years to get one for their child.

This. We have a lovely boy in Y5 with autism. But last assessed at developmentally 18 months. Toilet trained in June, in nappies up until then. Needs a totally different curriculum - think occ therapy, speech & lang, sensory. Forget even the EYFS curriculum. It's nothing any of us were trained in and we have no specialists. EHCP in place but v woolly in terms of what to actually do with him - at present, he has a selection of toys various staff members' ch have grown out of. We do activities recommended by occ therapist but as they are couched in jargon eg develop vestibular skills rather than "use swing , soft play, wobble board" then we're in the dark.

He has a 1:1 (actually not HIS 1:1 - she is technically shared with another 3 children but his needs mean she has those others for v little. Lovely lady but again, no specialist.)

His needs are not being met as we have no practical advice. The head won't admit it because he brings extra funding. And although he has been discussed at special school panels year on year, there is never a place for him. His needs aren't considered severe enough in comparison to others.

What is the school doing to tighten up the EHCP? Can you contact the occupational therapist to ask for advice on what exactly you should be doing? Have you recommended at annual reviews that the child has full time dedicated 1:1 support? Have you recommended a full reassessment? Have you suggested to the parents that they appeal for a special school placement and offered to support them with the appeal, including referring them to someone like SOS SEN or IPSEA for support?

x2boys · 01/10/2022 10:02

I think special needs provision is very much area dependent, in my LEA we have two SEN primary schools, one that caters for children with moderate to severe learning disabilities, and one that caters for children with severe to profound learning disabilities,they also specialise with children who have autism along with learning disabilities
And again two SEN high school, s for the same reasons ,we also have two primary schools with autism hubs and two high schools with autism hubs .