Why wasn't 40pc rate reduced or income tax thresholds raised?

[Indigoo03]

Any opinions?

The State provides education. NHS for people. Defence for people. It's people who help you get money - whatever job you do. The State gives you money - maybe not directly but without a State and people working within that State, you wouldn't have any money.

It's society. We are all part of it

Those things are not money. As I wrote, the state does use a bit of the taxes that I pay to cover the devices (roads, police, rule of law, defence etc.) and then redistributes the rest.

Charging me for these services can’t be described as “giving me money.”

You seem to be edging towards the idea that everything that we own is owed to the state and that they then give us some of it back. That’s not a very sensible view.

Charging me for these services can’t be described as “giving me money

How do you get your money?

Do you think that if there was no State providing services, no organisation, no education system, no healthcare system - that you would actually be able to earn money?

You seem to be edging towards the idea that everything that we own is owed to the state and that they then give us some of it back. That’s not a very sensible view

Not at all.

Businesses need people to work in them. To be healthy. To have people educated to work in them. To generate work and to have the systems in place to function.

How do you think your income would work without a functioning society? Where would your money come from?

Yes, I need these services, and pay my taxes for them.

That in no way justifies the ludicrous claim that the state is giving me money. You do understand, don’t you, that words like “money” have a meaning, and that you are seemingly trying to change that rather than admit that you are wrong.

I prefer a soft socialist system myself but in answer to your question how do you think that people earned money before we had any of those things you talk of, say in the 1700s, no health care, no free education, no free road clearance or sewage removal, no proper roads, toll bridges to use the few proper roads we had?

How did people earn money then

You really don't get it, do you?

Well, isn't that a question.

I think we would have to go back to before the State itself existed and money itself. And the development of monetary policy

I clearly do get it, I get that you made an idiotic claim and are now having to try to pretend that words have completely different meanings to their real ones to justify it.

You are trying to claim that me having access to the NHS, which I pay fir is the state “giving me money.”

That’s just pathetic.

Im not asking because I dont know, Im asking because you seem to think you know

You dont need public services or instruments of state, apart from the mechanism of money, to earn money. But even then, during periods of our own history there were different forms of money before that became standardised and controlled

But thats a massive stretch to saying to that poster that they can ONLY earn money because of the various state run provisions that there are such as healthcare, education, roads, utilities (state subsidised), armies etc etc.

People have been earning money long long before those things came along and even worse in those days any taxes raised were literally just for the kings coffers, it wasnt to provide the public with supports or provisions at all. No one got anything 'back' from any taxes they paid.

So prior to the industrial revolution? How do you suggest people make money without the infrastructure, without employees that are educated to a level that is needed tog

To service the modern day economy- it is irrelevant what was happening in Robin Hood's day - oh hang on🤔

Are you asking me?

Are you seriously unaware that people earned money prior to the industrial revolution?

How is that even relevant to how the modern day economy works. I wasn't asking you, it was rhetorical because it has no bearing on any of this discussion!

No its not particularly relevant, I was just responding to a posters stance that another poster wouldnt be able to earn money without things like education, health care etc etc

That is plain nonsense.

You have to know your history to understand things in the present day sometimes.

In a modern day economy, without the State, do you think your business and income would be the same?

The way life functions, the infrastructure, the work force, everything, your livelihood, my livelihood, depends on having lots of things in place to function.

It's got nothing to do with 'you' having access to the NHS. It's society as a whole. A population that is healthy is more likely to be productive and to allow money to circulate - so people can provide services, goods etc to get some of that money themselves and to generate wealth.

It's not about you. It's about the bigger picture. Society.

In a modern society, it's much easier to earn money and to function as a society if we are well educated, have defence, healthcare, decent infrastructure.

Some people seem to resent paying money towards those things even though they benefit society as a whole and lead to potentially higher growth and more money for them. They can't see beyond their own perspective.

Yes its easier, its easier all round for people at every level. Its particularly easier for the poor

I work in public services so am well aware of the entitlement people have, they want gold plated services but dont want to contribute at all and so a good state will make sure that contribution is compulsory so that there are services for all

But thats not what you said, you asked the poster how they think they can earn money without those things. Which of course they could.

What is 'nonsense',

It is about as relevant as the 'Chronicles of Narnia'!

Well thats a can of worms isnt it, because that series is an allegory about a perfect world, with a just and kind and protective leader so that everyone can thrive.

A bit like the state should be I suppose, so that people can earn money easily. Because if they dont have that, then they cant earn money

You see everything is as relevant as you want to make it

I agree OP. It was madness not to address the higher rate threshold. It’s far, far too low and has been used as a stealth tax for years now. If it had been uprated with inflation it would be £80-90k now. It needs resetting and it should also be put into law that all thresholds are uprated with inflation annually automatically.

Not to mention that raising the 40% threshold to £80k was an existing promise they had a mandate for, unlike most of what they actually did. So why didn’t it happen?? Baffling.

So hammering middle earners as a cash cow yet again.

for everyone not earning over £150k, this is a real terms tax rise despite the headline cuts because of the frozen thresholds and rampant inflation.

I looked in to moving to Sweden. I had thought the tax implications would be utterly horrific but, really, it wasn’t that terrible. And once I’d looked at things in the round - particularly the difference in the costs of childcare.

I actually think that for anyone towards the higher earning end of things (I’m nowhere near troubling the 6 figure salary mark, but still in the higher tax rate) the UK is a shit deal. You do end up paying a lot of tax but in return you get pretty crap public services. It’s not like the system is doing a good job of redistributing things either. It’s not like you can even say that at least it went to ensuring children were kept warm in the winter, regardless of their parents’ income (or something else that might feel like the tax was worth it).

The UK has a pretty dismal offer for people who can earn pretty well but aren’t super rich and, therefore, don’t give a fuck what the state offers.

Absolutely. Middle earners in the higher rate band are absolutely hammered with tax compared to their income, but receive absolutely appalling public services in return. Where is the incentive? If this budget was really about incentivising people raising the higher rate band to a minimum of £80k would have been the first priority.

What's the child benefit cut off? What about the 600 towards energy bills - who qualifies?