Ukraine weapons vs UN and sanctions AIBU anonymous vote

[newdaynewdawn0]

This is an AIBU vote so that people can express how they feel about this by anonymously voting. I hope that this is allowed! Some people feel wary of posting or talking about it but may want to anonymously vote.

My AIBU:

We should be negotiating to send UN peacekeepers to Ukraine NOT weapons or soldiers which are doing nothing but escalate problems, and sanctions should stop as they are not working and might be disastrous for the UK and the UN going in would be more effective than sanctions = YANBU

Weapons and sanctions are good = YABU

Perhaps they should have lobbied for a referendum instead of invading back in the day?

I have to agree with @dreamingbohemian.
Your UN Peacekeeping 'solution' isn't going to amount to a hill of beans in the face of Russian allies like China taking a tougher stance with Moscow after watching the disordered, increasingly failing invasion of the Ukraine and the subsequent collapse of its reputation as a 'security patron'. Even Kazakhstan has tried to remain neutral over Russian-controlled east Ukrainian territories. The balance of power has shifted and the UN is way out of its depth here.
To quote Temur Umarov, (Carnegie Endowment for International Peace), "many central Asian countries see that Russia needs them more than ever before, and they're now trying to squeeze as much as they can."

Putin announced mobilisation of reservists yesterday, but they have already thrown the best of their regular army plus conscripts at Ukraine and have struggled to annex the Donbas region. That negates your point that they could easily do it now or in 2014.

I am all for discussion but the language you are using gives you away. “Special Operation” is the term only the Russian government uses for what is happening. The referendums in Donbas were widely considered not to be free and fair even by the UN you think are the saviour of this situation. Putin has been very open in the past about his opinions on Ukraine as a sovereign nation. To pretend this is a civil war or to stop extremism (again only Russia is touting the extremist line) is disingenuous at best.

Nice to see the posters of Mumsnet aren’t being taken in by the propaganda.

I have equivalent level qualifications and in addition expertise in high level negotiation
You're being very vague there. Having qualifications at an "equivalent level" could just mean that you have a PhD in metallurgy, art, or some other field completely unrelated to foreign policy or defence. As for "expertise in high level negotiation", for all we know that could just mean persuading a toddler to eat his broccoli rather than throw it from the tray of his high chair.

There was no special operation or invasion between 2014 and 2022, that is the point. As well as the fact that much of this was speculation. Russian soldiers disguised as civilians wouldn't be much help on the battle field, as they wouldn't have guns.
Oh give over, just as an unmarked police car is still a police car and a Trojan horse is full of Greeks, an unmarked Russian convoy of armoured personnel carriers with logistics support still contains armed combatants.

Russian hasn't mobilised yet. This is still at SO level. So I think what you are saying is likely to be wrong, but clearly if there is risk to people in Crimea and NATO soldiers and equipment continue to act then it is likely things will escalate.

I don't know how to quote so I've copied and pasted.

Are you on the Kremlin payroll? Yes or no.

The key thing here - if Ukraine is supporting the Ukrainian people, why not propose referendums in Crimea and Donbas and the rest of Ukraine before bombing and get involved to satisfy itself that the referendums are legitimate?

It was reported that 2 million Ukrainians have been forcibly removed from the occupied area, taken to Russia . How fair do you think a referendum would be when the legitimate voters are in a different country against their will?

After Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands in 1982, they planned on holding a referendum for the resident islanders over the issue of sovereignty.

Their definition of islanders would have included anyone who was resident on the islands at the time, i.e., all of the Argentinian armed forces and civilian staff, who vastly outnumbered the actual residents.

Never happened because it was overtaken by events. But, just as in Ukraine, it fools no one- except for those who are wanting to be fooled because it suits their own agenda.

I notice that the OP has been AWOL for a while. Probably being transported to Siberia in punishment for their incompetent attempt to portray Ukraine as the villain here.

@DdraigGoch Yes you're probably right, or been sent to the front

I haven't been on MN because of other life commitments, work, etc. The answer is no, I am not on Kremlin's payroll. I think it was a bizarre question but I have answered clearly all the same.

It was reported, where? I have seen Red Cross and other independent reports as well as eye witness accounts etc etc that some or even the majority of people from Donbas were of Russian ethnicity and were trying to get into Russia or Crimea from Mariupol and other areas. I have also seen reports that some were taken to Russia against their will and put in housing where they were fed and warm and dry etc, but were allowed to leave, many then returned to Donbas or other areas of Ukraine. There are films online about this.

Things have moved on, but in terms of making sure everyone saw it as fair would have been part of the process, had the international community supported the concept of referendums. They didn't, Russia went ahead, the west has said the outcome is a sham, is what has happened since I was posting here last.

I think the answer why referendums were/are not supported by the west might be because of the geopolitical issues.

@newdaynewdawn0 nah, the referendums were not supported because it is impossible to have a free and fair referendum in a country where an occupying force which has killed thousands and trashed the country is running the referendum. I really hope that's simple enough for you.

You're pro Russia, we get it. You think Putin was right to invade Ukraine. You won't get a lot of support here.