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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think keeping ds in at break is an inappropriate punishment?

62 replies

Faithin · 14/09/2022 19:40

Ds is 9, autistic and currently being assessed for adhd.
today he had to stay in at break time to write an apology to a teacher for not doing his work in a maths lesson.
he told me that during m maths he left the class crying, was upset, got told he had to go back in and complete the work, he didn't do anything naughty as such but didn't do any of the work (because he finds it difficult)
his ehcp says he needs a lot of support, regular movement breaks, and to be able to leave the classroom when he is overwhelmed etc obviously in more detail but along those lines
I only know about this because he managed to poke a hole in his had with a pencil during the time he was being kept in at break so he explained what happened.
AIBU to be really annoyed? Why are they making an autistic 9 year old write an apology to a full grown adult for struggling at school?? For things related to his difficulties with learning?

OP posts:
Original poster
Faithin · 14/09/2022 20:58

TheNefariousOrange · 14/09/2022 20:40

I hope this doesn't come across as inflammatory because I really don't mean it to be. But if he has problems at this stage accessing the curriculum, and you say yourself he's 8th centile for retention, then is MS really the best place for him? Where he will continually be judged against the bell curve of his peers, and later in his education, the country? The curriculum is becoming harder, not more inclusive, and that's not on the teacher, but on governmental policy. The pressure will be on the teacher to get your ds up to standard, which you are acknowledging is an impossible standard. Many schools will expect the teacher to have a log of interventions that they have implemented to ensure ds gets up to that unattainable standard.

Show quote history

I agree, I don't think mainstream is the right place for him at all but unfortunately there isn't really a 'right' place for him, he is quite complicated in that in other areas of learning he scored within the very high/above average range so he is capable just with a lot of support, which realistically is more than a mainstream school can provide.
the local special school is for children with more severe learning difficulties and higher needs, the others are privately run and the local council aren't exactly willing to do expensive things and agree to those placements.Possibly an adhd diagnosis and medication might help. I hope it does.
im just trying to get him through the end of primary school with his mental health and self esteem intact. We are thinking special school for secondary

OP posts:
Helgadaley · 14/09/2022 21:00

The child has a neurodevelopment condition and learning difficulties, the work should be differentiated to take into account his individual needs
It sounds as if the child is unable to learn at the same rate as most of his peers. I too am questioning whether mainstream school is the best place for him. For instance, if the teacher is teaching adding and subtracting fractions, there are limited ways of making this understandable. Similarly with teaching grammar. At my granddaughter's school, the children are 'set' on different tables, with differentiated work according to perceived ability. The one child who can't work at the same rate as her peers has a permanent 1to1 TA, and I believe she is happy and making progress. But without a 1 to 1, it must be hard for the teacher. I think the OP is expecting the teacher to effectively double the workload by preparing individual work for her son.

Sunny123456 · 14/09/2022 21:02

cansu · 14/09/2022 20:04

I disagree. I have two children with asd. Children with asd are all different. Some cannot function in a mainstream environment because they can't cope with the demands or the sensory overload. However, some do function well enough with support to access the curriculum and make progress. Sometimes they (like other kids) make choices that are not the ones they need to or should make. He presumably needs to work on his maths. There is a finite amount of time in a lesson. If he decides on a given day to not do his work then there needs to be a consequence for this. I would personally prefer that to be doing the maths he didn't do during part of lunchtime or completing a few questions before going out to play. If you decide now that his disability means he never faces any consequences, you are effectively saying that none of the rules apply. The parts of the story you are missing are undoubtedly the numerous attempts the adults involved made to help your son engage with his learning. I have worked with many children with asd. There have been some children for whom the classroom setting did not work even with skilled one to one support and plenty of safe spaces and adaptations. I have had some children whose needs were high but whose parents worked with me to ensure that the child engaged and did what they were capable of. I have also had parents who wanted their child to do well but were not able to trust the staff. You have made the decision to be annoyed without even speaking to the adults. You have made this call based on what your nine year old autistic child has told you.

This.

Original poster
Faithin · 14/09/2022 21:06

Helgadaley · 14/09/2022 21:00

The child has a neurodevelopment condition and learning difficulties, the work should be differentiated to take into account his individual needs
It sounds as if the child is unable to learn at the same rate as most of his peers. I too am questioning whether mainstream school is the best place for him. For instance, if the teacher is teaching adding and subtracting fractions, there are limited ways of making this understandable. Similarly with teaching grammar. At my granddaughter's school, the children are 'set' on different tables, with differentiated work according to perceived ability. The one child who can't work at the same rate as her peers has a permanent 1to1 TA, and I believe she is happy and making progress. But without a 1 to 1, it must be hard for the teacher. I think the OP is expecting the teacher to effectively double the workload by preparing individual work for her son.

I am actually just expecting the teacher to not punish my son for the fact that they can't teach him. I know it isn't the teachers fault he doesn't have enough help, but it's not fs's fault either so why should he be punished for it?? You cannot punish autism/adhd out of a child, so what is the point?
i am actually expecting them to prepare individual work for my son because his ehcp says he needs personalised curriculum and differentiated work. That tasks need to be split up into small manageable tasks. Etc so yes I am expecting them to do that (not the class teacher, the school)

OP posts:
Ponderingwindow · 14/09/2022 21:07

I would call a meetIng with the senco and the teacher, preferably for tomorrow. If he is supposed to be able to leave the classroom if he is upset, then there are not supposed to be consequences for that. One of two things happened. 1) they ignored his plan.
or
2) this wasn’t an instance of his plan being triggered at the start of the episode, but whatever happened it escalated quickly and everyone needs to understand what happened. Trying to communicate through an upset child is not appropriate.

removing break time for ASD students is typically seen as a bad idea. It is important for him to be able to get that gross motor time and he will be able to focus more if he has burned off some energy. That is the second issue to address though. It can be added to his plan if needed.

cansu · 14/09/2022 21:13

The thing is OP you don't know whether the work was suitable. You don't know that he wasn't supported to do the task. All you know is that your son got into trouble in school. You have decided that it is because the work was too hard and that he wasn't helped. You need to try and engage with his teachers. They are not the enemy. If he is not appropriately placed then you need to get on and find where he should be. Yes it is hard. I fought for both my kids to get a specialist independent placement.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/09/2022 21:14

What resource is specified in his EHCP in terms of 1:1 funded hours etc? If there aren’t any, why not? For a child whose long-term destination is special school, the level of differentiation required can be trsource-intensive, especially if there are multiple other children with SEN within the classroom (iirc, the national average is 28% of all children, so around 7 pupils in every class of 30).

A meeting with the class teacher and SENDCo seems a sensible next step, perhaps with a view to getting more support written into his EHCP to perhaps bring sone funded 1:1 hours. Many schools are now working at 30+ children per class with just 1 adult at all times for funding reasons, so if you have multiple children all needing significant differentiation, it becomes a genuinely impossible task without additional resource.

cansu · 14/09/2022 21:15

Ponderingwindow you can add all sorts to the plan. If the child can't access even the differentiated and supported work then there are bigger issues here than him missing one break time.

FallSky · 14/09/2022 21:16

We're they not supervising him when he was self harming with a pencil?!

yanbu. Schools put themselves at risk of disability discrimination claims by not making reasonable adjustments or following EHCPs. It doesn't cost either as it's done via SENDIST.

SunflowerOrange · 14/09/2022 21:19

I think the problem is schools typically move to "missing break" when they see "work not done." Whixh isn't appropiate for an autistic/adhd child.

Firstly they need the movement breaks to cope with all the other demands that school brings. You don't take away crutches or glasses. You shouldn't take away breaks.

Secondly it's lazy teaching (often due to low resources) when they need to be looking at why the child isn't coping/able to work.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/09/2022 21:19

(If a child has needs so significant that they cannot access any of the normal class work, then a teacher has to create double plans and double resources for every lesson - and with the difficulties that come with ADHD/ASD, may also need significant additional support in every lesson, With 30 children in a class, 6 others of whom will, on average, have some firm of SEN, then it rapidly becomes not humanly possible to meet every child’s needs. The fault then does not lie with the teacher, or even the school, but in underfunding and la k of specialist settings)

Helgadaley · 14/09/2022 21:20

i am actually expecting them to prepare individual work for my son because his ehcp says he needs personalised curriculum and differentiated work. That tasks need to be split up into small manageable tasks. Etc so yes I am expecting them to do that (not the class teacher, the school

Unless I'm mistaken, you didn't say in your original post that your son has an ehcp. That makes a difference - the school should be providing extra help for him in that case. He should have one to one support and you need to find out why he hasn't got this. It needs to be put in place as soon as possible.

Anothermother3 · 14/09/2022 21:22

vipersnest1 · 14/09/2022 20:55

@Anothermother3, that all depends on whether or not he has an EHCP.
@Faithin, if he doesn't, you need to make that your first priority - an EHCP is a requirement in law that has to be followed. If he does, then you will likely know what is included in it, and whether or not it needs to be reviewed.
Either way, your first stop is definitely the SENCO as PP have suggested.
Good luck.

The opening post references what the ehcp stipulates if you read the whole way through so he does indeed have an ehcp.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/09/2022 21:23

Helgadaley, if an EHCP does not have specified 1:1 support - and the associated funding, which is why such detail is often resisted by LAs - then there is no money for a school to provide it, however much it is needed. Horrifying, I agree.

Helgadaley · 14/09/2022 21:23

Sorry, I've just re-read and I see that you did mention his ehcp.

EmeraldShamrock1 · 14/09/2022 21:25

No it is definitely not an appropriate punishment for a DC with autism.

Unfortunately it's not easy to disagree and feel you're oversensitive with teacher's routine.

I have had a good run of mainstream with DS due to fantastic teachers, his new teacher has made a beeline for him this year, she is a shouting teacher and I'm not confident that he won't fall apart and all the hardwork will become undone.

It's horrible as a parent in this situation. 😕

Original poster
Faithin · 14/09/2022 21:27

He has his annual review for his plan in a couple of weeks so I will mention all this.
his plan is worded awfully, the LA refused to specify 1:1 hours it just says things like "high level of adult support" Barely any children in mainstream in the borough receive 1:1 But reading the things in the ehcp and from the Ed psych report it's quite obvious that to actually provide them he would need a 1:1 but it's a battle.

OP posts:
cantkeepawayforever · 14/09/2022 21:28

I should reiterate - sorry - that I do not think that the punishment was appropriate, especially as he was then not supervised (though I have sympathy in a way, in that the teacher was possibly either on playground duty or seizing their only chance in 4 hours to go to the toilet)

cansu · 14/09/2022 21:29

I have known kids with asd who are quite capable academically who end up not fulfilling their potential because no one has high expectations of them. They go from class to class sitting with a ta who tries to coax them into doing some work with little success. They are technically doing well. They spend vast amounts of time playing with legs or drawing or having time on computer games but they learn virtually nothing. They refuse to do anything that is not on their agenda. I get that this is linked to their asd but the adults around them including their parents are doing them no favours. My dd goes to a very caring specialist school. There are rules. There are consequences. Having asd does not mean no consequences for poor choices unless the ld is so severe that the child cannot grasp the link.

cantkeepawayforever · 14/09/2022 21:33

Faithin · 14/09/2022 21:27

He has his annual review for his plan in a couple of weeks so I will mention all this.
his plan is worded awfully, the LA refused to specify 1:1 hours it just says things like "high level of adult support" Barely any children in mainstream in the borough receive 1:1 But reading the things in the ehcp and from the Ed psych report it's quite obvious that to actually provide them he would need a 1:1 but it's a battle.

That is pretty much what I imagined - like when an EHCP prescribes regular movement breaks and the teacher gies ‘Where? With who?’ because the teacher cannot physically both be with the child moving and with the class. Everyone seems to end up playing a game where the child’s needs are specified but can’t be met OR the needs are minimised to match the actual resource available. Heartbreaking for everyone.

Original poster
Faithin · 14/09/2022 21:34

cansu · 14/09/2022 21:29

I have known kids with asd who are quite capable academically who end up not fulfilling their potential because no one has high expectations of them. They go from class to class sitting with a ta who tries to coax them into doing some work with little success. They are technically doing well. They spend vast amounts of time playing with legs or drawing or having time on computer games but they learn virtually nothing. They refuse to do anything that is not on their agenda. I get that this is linked to their asd but the adults around them including their parents are doing them no favours. My dd goes to a very caring specialist school. There are rules. There are consequences. Having asd does not mean no consequences for poor choices unless the ld is so severe that the child cannot grasp the link.

He does have consequences.
this attitude it so harmful, I don't just let him do whatever he wants because he's autistic. Not do I have low expectations of him.
I am confident that he will do well in life he is a very intelligent creative and driven child. The school environment is just not a place that he can thrive in and beyond homeschooling him (not an option, single parent and i need to work) then he needs to get enough school with as little damage as possible.

OP posts:
SunflowerOrange · 14/09/2022 21:37

Yup I have high expectations. I know many kids at grammar school. However that doesn't change their basic needs. You don't take glasses/crutches etc away just because someone is bright do you?!

SunflowerOrange · 14/09/2022 21:38

OP please get advice before the ehcp review and take sendiass or similar rep without so you can get proper support written in. It's a game with words and so unfair.

serenghetti2011 · 14/09/2022 21:42

I don’t think restricting playtime is an appropriate punishment for a child, any child and especially those with additional support needs.

it’s hard enough for them, to struggle with little support, to mask all day and be miserable at school (my son) without the one part of the day they enjoy withheld because they are unable to finish work they can’t do. Difference if it’s outright refusal of something they can do but I just think it’s a punishment for being autistic or dyslexic. I am also writing this from personal experience because my teacher did this me too in primary 2 so I was 6/7 and undiagnosed as yet but severely dyslexic. That teacher was so mean to me. She left me in a classroom on my own to finish the ‘work’ I could not do. In tears and it made my peers notice I was ‘different’ which then made them be quite unkind. I was withdrawn and painfully shy didn’t have any friends because I was excluded from play as I was kept in. I didn’t tell my mum as I used to get so angry and upset after school but once she found out it never happened again. School weren’t anymore helpful following this or my diagnosis and I was utterly miserable at school.

i Think it’s sad that punishments like this are being used for children like my son, I would not allow it. He would not understand why, when he was struggling he didn’t get help or support instead of punishment it’s a very negative way to teach imo

cantkeepawayforever · 14/09/2022 21:44

It is worth bearing in mind that, if he is in Year5 as his age suggests, then the EHCP review this tear is the one where secondary choices are generally specified (because the application process in Y6 generally starts so early that a Y6 EHCP review is typically too late).

If, as you say, you intend him to move iut of mainstream for secondary, then you should be starting to get that process started with this review (locally, special schools are so oversubscribed that parents starting the application process in Y6 findthemselves in long waiting lists lasting into Y8 even when the placement has been agreed in Y6).

You will need two agendas for the coming review: a) what secondary provision do you want and the fight to get that granted and b) what provision is needed in primary until then. The greater the evidence for the gap between mainstream provision and his needs in primary, the mire thus will support your secondary school plans.