To think Dentists are greedy and disgrace

[Thisismynamenow]

I have a hole in my tooth (thanks pregnancy for the poor teeth!)

My nhs dentist has apparentpy cancelled their nhs contract to go private (without telling patients) and not a single dentist within 20 miles is willing to take on nhs, but everyone can offer same day private appointments.

I know the nhs is underfunded but it's disgusting dentists are allowed to be only private, they should be made to be half nhs!

My tooth is killing me, I can't afford the £400 I've been quoted for the filling (it's a tiny hole, literally a pin hole!) And the hopsitall will only pull it which I don't want. Its annoying me more as i currently have a maternity exemption which I can't use.

Aibu to think dentists are greedy, and that it shouldn't be allowed?

Maybe you should take your own advice?

The Govt pay NHS dentists to treat NHS dentists, the amounts they pay them is pathetic, as is your attempt to link a lack of dentists to dental charges introduced in the 50s.

Brexit also led to EU dentists leaving the UK and a failure to recognise EU/Worldwide qualifications & Brexit and its after effects is purely down to the Tories, our present PM wanted it and they negotiated it, try finding a minister who doesn't support Brexit?

Aside, its also very short sighted, patients aren't getting checked for oral cancers, patients using AE services and down here in Cornwall, paying private companies, like BUPA private patient rates to treat NHS patients as emergencies.

If none of this is down to 13 years of Tory Govt, then what exactly is the Govt responsible for?

Every aspect of our lives is worse than it was in 2010 and in some cases, far far worse and thats down to Tory mismanagement, fraud and incompetence.

Don't blame the dentists - blame the government.
Dentists train for 5 years and qualify with a debt of £45,000 in tuition fees alone. There is no contract which means they have to join the NHS. They are free to work wherever they like.
I very much doubt any new grad would pick a job which pays half of what another company is offering? It's incredibly expensive to practice as a medical / dental practitioner in the UK, insurances, registration costs, unions, public liability, revalidation expenses, these often come to hundreds of pounds a month.

I was speaking to my dentist last week about this. She was telling me it’s a nightmare working with the nhs. She was pulled up on something (can’t remember exactly what procedure) and they stated that the average for this procedure was 5% but that hers was 17%, basically implying that she was claiming for unnecessary treatment. My daughter has been waiting for 2 years for a cap on her back tooth. The dentist referred her to the hospital. As we had not heard after 2 years the dentist did it herself. I asked why she just didn’t do it in the 1st place and she said she would have got questions when my daughter was 14/15 for the procedure but was so disgusted that we hadn’t heard anything that she’d argue the point.

i have found an nhs dentist but many people now have some sort of plan so they can continue with the dentists that have gone wholly private

I’m going to disagree. I’ve never ever met another vet who has pushed anything for money. I’m not saying they don’t exist but just that it’s not the majority. Also for an idea of how much I’m paid… my student loan has increased rather than reduced in amount since I graduated. I suspect it’s more related to feeling the need to ‘offer all the options’ and fearing risk of complaints or people wanting to sue because they could’ve been treated by were not. I do however know lots of vets that have left the profession due to feeling like clients think they’re only in it for the money. It’s a shame that this is what people think.

A very quick economic lesson.
The vast majority (78%) of dentists do not own their practice.

on the average UDA value (a system used to pay dentists) they get around £8 a UDA after practice expenses.

A check up, x rays, scaling etc earns one

all the above plus all root treatments , fillings extractions earns between one and five in total

a course of treatment , including all the above plus something that needs lab work earns 12.

a fast dentist, in a good day when no one needs much treatment will complete 30 UDAs in a day .

To practice they need GDC registration and indemnity , to pay for that is around 25 working days so let's say mid February in a working year .

They will have built up, on average £80,000 worth of student debt at a minimum that's 4 days working

They will need to pay tax and national insurance , approximately 1/3 of earnings so we are now into June before a dentist working on the NHS starts to earn any money , and that's without holidays.

But wait , every dentist has a target they have to hit , otherwise they have to pay money back (clawback) , around 86% of practices are estimated not to hit their target , so NHS dentist has to put money away for that.

phew it's over half way through the year , the dentist can relax and work hard earning money ..... no because they need to complete compulsory CPD (courses) which they need to pay for and take time off for.

If they are a sensible dentist they will also have policies to cover sick pay and loss of earnings because if they are sick they have to pay for a locum to do their job.

I have worked in dentistry for decades and have never earned enough to pay higher rate tax. My good friend sold their practice recently , in their last year they earned £17,000.

It costs , in a cheap area £120 an hour per room to run a dental practice . The NHS pays, including patient contribution around £36 per patient per year treated.

How do those figures equate to a NHS dental service that doesn't financially cripple anyone working in it?

Dentists have been, for years, subsidising the NHS side by doing private treatment . Eg if you repair someone's denture the fee doesn't even cover the lab fee , you would be better off giving someone £5 to go down the road . Extensive filling, root fillings the same.

Unfortunately the massive increase in costs of providing dentistry have shoved many over the financial edge , hence bupa closing 85 of their practices . 13 of these were private only , the finances of dentistry are perilous even privately.

Well said @Lollygaggle sadly, it's not fashionable on MN to read the actual truth about dentistry! I do not miss it one iota.

Now if only there was some way to prevent the need to spend money on fillings and root canal treatments. Hmm. Let's have a think.

Dental care is worse in Wales, under a Welsh Labour government. Try getting an NHS dentist here.

Dentistry is a different beast from healthcare. Look, once again, to our European neighbours. Very few have universal free or state subsidised dentistry. Most have cover for children but not adults. The result is competition (gasp), and resultant reasonably priced dental treatment. At the moment we have, as usual, the worse if both worlds. Private patients subsidising poor or non- existent NHS cover. It's not sustainable.

Wow, that is absolutely shocking.
Thank you for explaining in such detail.
The Op should read this and then get rid of that untrue nasty title to this thread.

She won't though.

"Reasonably priced dental treatment "
let's take the country where dental tourism is at its greatest
Turkey

the average wage in Turkey is around £400 a month , so how affordable for the average Turk is dental treatment?

Dentistry in the U.K. is the most highly regulated in the world , 30 times more regulated than the EU. With such high regulation comes cost.

Over 52 different authorities can inspect a U.K. dental practice and this has costs . Eg each practice has at least one , and probably more , autoclaves . These are expensive to buy , but , on top

each has to have speacially treated water to run , the water in a dental practice is annually tested for legionella , the water used in lines has disinfectant and is tested daily/weekly , the water discharged is run through filters

each has to be serviced annually cost £400 plus

each has to have a pressure vessel inspection annually

each and every day a nurse has to test , inspect and report on the autoclave

every run the autoclave makes has to be recorded and kept for two years (it runs continuously during the day)

every dental practice will have regular inspections from CQC/HIW health authorities and autoclave checking will be part of that process .

This is but one small piece of equipment in a practice that has hundreds of pieces.

The dentists/dental nurses/hygienists/therapists/dental technicians have to be trained, registered every year and complete compulsory training . This is not the case for dental nurses and technicians in most other countries .

In the U.K. you are far more likely to be sued as a dentist , than in any other country in the world. In eg Turkey I think the average indemnity cost is around £200 , in the U.K. £5000 to £25000 plus .

Finally the biggest competition we have in the U.K. is the artificially low prices paid for highly complex microsurgery by the NHS . Unfortunately the general public do not have an idea of how much it costs to provide medical treatment. Look at the ire given to vets over costs , when the average vet earns £35,000. BUPA , specsavers, boots , and many others have tried to provide dentistry and pulled out when they could not make a profit NHS or private.

Finally to give a small idea , this is a bottle of glue used to glue in white fillings . It's not the most expensive glue and other chemicals and disposables are used in putting a filling in . This is a 5ml bottle . How much does it cost ?

It's ok , it's on special offer this week

It also evaporates really easily so if a nurse accidentally leaves the top off....

YABU. Of course they're not "greedy" and "a disgrace" They can't make a living from NHS work, so what are they supposed to do? Perhaps the costs make people realise that they shouldn't take the services of highly skilled and trained professionals for granted.

Nhs dentists earn 45 to 90k a year according to the nhs website

Doesn't sound shabby to me

No not greedy.
Like the rest of the nhs the contracts they have totally take the mick out of them.
Also the time slots they have for patients doesn’t allow them time to do the job properly, so lots of botch jobs needing repeat appointments to fix the botch.
Easier to go private, do the job properly and get some job satisfaction.
The whole system needs an overhaul if it’s to function effectively.
They're highly skilled professionals and deserve to be paid properly.

That is dentists employed by the NHS ie those in hospital and community service. These are a tiny fraction of dentists , most of whom are self employed.

I know a state school A Level student who is desperate to become a dentist.

But... they cannot get a place to study dentistry at university despite being predicted 3 grade As at A Level.

7% of UK pupils attend a private school but nearly 30% of all dentistry students are from private schools.

You have to pass an aptitude test to get into dentistry, but will struggle to pass this unless you pay for private coaching. I wonder who will therefore do better in these tests...? 🤔

So is it any wonder we have such a shortage of NHS dentists when those from average/lower income families who would perhaps more likely spend far longer working for the NHS are at a massive disadvantage already to even get to study dentistry?

This old chestnut... Wales isn't an independent country and wasn't responsible for Austerity or Brexit and is centrally funded by Westminster, its little more than a council.
The dental funding contract is UK wide.

The Tories could have improved the dentists contract at anytime over the last 13 years but chose not too... because they don't use NHS dentistry ... that, pardon the pun, is the root cause for all of this short sighted debacle.

There is no shortage of dentists, the amount of dentists on the GDC register has increased slightly .
However there is a massive shortage of people willing to do NHS dentistry.

In the past corporates lured in overseas dentists who were dazzled by what they were told they could earn , however having seen the reality of how you have to work in NHS dentistry moved on , either back home or into private dentistry.

I qualified in an era when we all worked full time in NHS dentistry and that's what we expected to do our whole careers. My age group never had to pay student loans back but in recent years even we have been affected by increased costs, paperwork and litigation.

The young dentists I have trained will work for the minimum time they can in the NHS and get out before it destroys them . They want to work in "portfolio"careers working in several places at once because the pressures on body and mind of clinical dentistry are so high.

Dentistry is acknowledged to be one of the most highly stressful professions , with high suicide rates . My first colleague to try suicide was in dental school.

You cannot be coached to pass the UKAT and BMAT tests , and in fact dentistry is very good in intake for diversity with the exception of people from black backgrounds.

Interestingly the vast majority of dentists (over 86% if I remember) would not recommend their children take up dentistry as a career. Does that not say something?

We ve a local Dental School and many students are from overseas, they pay full fees and off set the losses made on UK students.

they are massively over subscribed for places, one reason is that they need volunteer qualified dentists to supervise them when they practice on the the general public... and not enough will work for nothing... why should they.

We need more dental schools, properly funded and reform of NHS charges....

No the dental funding contract is not country wide. Scotland and NI have still a piecework pay as you go system , Wales has a UDA system similar to England but with much less value for a UDA. It has also tried out different pilot schemes including one at the moment very different from England.
Wages for dentists and teams are lower in Wales,Scotland and NI and rates of dentists per head of population are lower than in England.
Wales, by any metric has the worst dental health of the four nations.

You can train all the dentists you like but...... this year , for the first time , a sizeable chunk of new dentists did not enter foundation training. In order to work in the NHS you have to do compulsory one year training.

You have to do this training within 18 months of graduating .

In effect these young dentists have graduated and will never work in the NHS.

In the past we imported young dentists , but even before Brexit recruitment was a problem because as soon as these dentists realised the reality of NHS dentistry they moved on.

There is no more money for NHS dentistry , we need to decide with the limited pot what we can do with it . We have moved the deck chairs on the titanic around and it made no difference . Training more young cannon fodder is not going to solve the problem. These are the brightest and best . They start preparing for their career by their early teens . They have to be smart, pass exams, have great people skills , have great manual skills, have great business skills, have great leadership qualities . They have to be mentally and physically extremely resilient . They and more importantly the vulnerable for whom there is no alternative to NHS provision , deserve better.

I don't think YABU to expect teeth to be covered under NHS, I would class issues with teeth as a medical issue same as anything I go to the doctor for or hospital. Dental issue can get extremely nasty if they are left.

The lack of NHS dentists is crap. Do you have parents who live further afield who's address you could put down as your own? There are no NHS dentists where I live so I found one near my parents and registered me and my children there with my parents address, just have to remember to say that's where I live when they ask me to confirm my postcode! Yes technically it's not great but make it affordable/more accessable and people wouldn't have to. No I don't feel remotely guilty.