AIBU?
To think a windfall tax would prevent investment in renewables at a time when we need them most
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 08:59
This may be an unpopular view, but people need to hear it. The vast profits being made by our energy companies look disgusting but are a once-in-a-generation opportunity for them to invest in alternatives to fossil fuels. They are building wind farms etc, and investing in future technologies such as modern nuclear power stations and fusion. This investment is the only way to wean us off fossil fuels such as gas. If Government takes the profits as a windfall tax, it would be a populist act that many would approve of, but they would then have to hand the money back to the same companies to subsidise their investment activities.
Disclaimer: I've never voted Conservative in my life, but I am objective and open to seeing the logic in some Conservative policies.
Am I being unreasonable?
AIBUYou have one vote. All votes are anonymous.
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:30
Flammkuchen · 08/09/2022 09:27
Investment is made based on the long-term future expected price, not what it is in the next 2 years.
If prices are expected to be temporarily high, and then reduce again, investment will only be made if it is economic at the expected future price, not the short-term high price.
That is why a one-off windfall tax does not deter investment if it is set at a sensible level and is not arbitrary.
Rubbish. They are investing in building infrastructure because they know the future is in alternative energy and they want to be the dominant suppliers of that when the oil/gas runs out. They are completely transforming their business models.
JustTheOneSwan · 08/09/2022 09:30
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:26
They're not leaving the market. They are transforming themselves to be the alternative energy companies of the future.
The naivity here is seriously worrying - do people honestly believe the likes of BP and Shell are only interested in oil and gas? They've been investing in alternatives for years and are gradually moving away from fossil fuels.
JustTheOneSwan · 08/09/2022 09:22
If you think a corporate juggernaut like Shell would leave the UK power market open for another company or competitors you aren't thinking straight.
Tax or restrictions isn't a deterrent when money can be made the issue is Tories prioritising their business chums and investments before their electorate plebs who get mugged.
I'm all for that but let them pay for the transformation with their substantial profit.
we could go crazy and spend the money we save with a tax on national power companies but instead we are allowing fracking?
how are we going to benefit there, how do we force these fracking companies to sell us gas much lower than market rates?
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:32
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:26
They're not leaving the market. They are transforming themselves to be the alternative energy companies of the future.
The naivity here is seriously worrying - do people honestly believe the likes of BP and Shell are only interested in oil and gas? They've been investing in alternatives for years and are gradually moving away from fossil fuels.
JustTheOneSwan · 08/09/2022 09:22
If you think a corporate juggernaut like Shell would leave the UK power market open for another company or competitors you aren't thinking straight.
Tax or restrictions isn't a deterrent when money can be made the issue is Tories prioritising their business chums and investments before their electorate plebs who get mugged.
The gradually in your reply is the problem. We do';t have time for gardually. The fossil fuel giants are still investing in new gas and oil fields. Only through legislation and financial penalty will they move at the speed they need to into renewables.
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:32
midgetastic · 08/09/2022 09:30
I would excempt anything actually spent directly on renewables but they would need pretty strong evidence
Go an read their company reports They are literally building wind farms and investing in developing fusion technologies and much more.
Brefugee · 08/09/2022 09:34
I'm not talking about water companies, They aren't suppliers of oil and gas. I'm talking about energy companies.
Again, the grasp of basic general knowledge is seriously lacking!
FFS op don't be an idiot. I SPECIFICALLY compared the investment that you think the energy companies will make with the investment the water companies haven't made. Your basic reading comprehension skills are seriously lacking.
FWIW: I believe that energy (and water) should be nationalised industries. But they need to be run professionally and properly with proper investment. I'm not entirely sure i trust any UK goverment to ensure that.
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:37
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
We’ll need this and renewables though?
We need all types full speed
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:40
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:37
We’ll need this and renewables though?
We need all types full speed
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
No. We don't need new sources of fossil fuel extraction that will cause irreversible catastrophic climate change. We need to vastly accelerate the transition into renewables. Every pound we spend on fossil fuels and every ton of new carbon we release into the atmosphere is inching us closer to disaster.
All investement should be put into a massive programme of energy conservation and insulation, local sustainable production (solar, air source heat pumps etc), public transport, wind, tidal etc etc, not opening up more gas fields!
SafeMove · 08/09/2022 09:41
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:30
Rubbish. They are investing in building infrastructure because they know the future is in alternative energy and they want to be the dominant suppliers of that when the oil/gas runs out. They are completely transforming their business models.
Flammkuchen · 08/09/2022 09:27
Investment is made based on the long-term future expected price, not what it is in the next 2 years.
If prices are expected to be temporarily high, and then reduce again, investment will only be made if it is economic at the expected future price, not the short-term high price.
That is why a one-off windfall tax does not deter investment if it is set at a sensible level and is not arbitrary.
Why, exactly, do they want to be dominant future suppliers? You casting around the term 'naivety' looks a bit silly when you say respond with points like this.
SleeplessInEngland · 08/09/2022 09:43
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:28
I'm not talking about water companies, They aren't suppliers of oil and gas. I'm talking about energy companies.
Again, the grasp of basic general knowledge is seriously lacking!
Brefugee · 08/09/2022 09:26
Read their annual reports. The evidence is there.
you are Liz Truss and i claim my fiver. There is zero evidence that water companies are investing properly otherwise you wouldn't have shit in your rivers and the sea. The dividend payments show this.
It's adorable you think energy companies would act so differently to water companies.
Anothernamechangeplease · 08/09/2022 09:43
So I'll ask again. Are you suggesting that we should legislate to force companies to invest a certain proportion of their excess profits, and if so, what percentage of profits would you make them invest?
Or are you going to leave it to their discretion and hope that they choose to do the right thing?
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:44
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:40
No. We don't need new sources of fossil fuel extraction that will cause irreversible catastrophic climate change. We need to vastly accelerate the transition into renewables. Every pound we spend on fossil fuels and every ton of new carbon we release into the atmosphere is inching us closer to disaster.
All investement should be put into a massive programme of energy conservation and insulation, local sustainable production (solar, air source heat pumps etc), public transport, wind, tidal etc etc, not opening up more gas fields!
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:37
We’ll need this and renewables though?
We need all types full speed
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
What’s the comparative timescale? We need security quickly
Nuclear takes years, fracking not sure or wind
And they are investing in renewables - the sustainability lead OEUK made same point as op re windfall tax
At this point being fast is key
midgetastic · 08/09/2022 09:47
There is no reason why tidal and even off shore wind for example couldn't be built quickly
Vaccines take decades to develop until the will is three
Yes without storage you need lots - of course the government could also hand over the cash they promised last year for the battery factory in the north east - that might help
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:48
Why, exactly, do they want to be dominant future suppliers?
Because it costs a huge amount to build the infrastructure and they have the size to be able to do that. They also invest in smaller companies to enable them to work on renewables.
The alternative is that Gvt takes a windfall tax and chooses how to re-distribute it to energy companies to invest in alternatives - an extra layer of intervention that is unecessary, so long as Gvt is already happy with how the investments are being made.
Remember that anyone who has a pension is already heavily invested in these big energy companies, so if they do well it is a good thing!
allatwonce · 08/09/2022 09:50
midgetastic · 08/09/2022 09:47
There is no reason why tidal and even off shore wind for example couldn't be built quickly
Vaccines take decades to develop until the will is three
Yes without storage you need lots - of course the government could also hand over the cash they promised last year for the battery factory in the north east - that might help
The Covid vaccine was only developed quickly because of big injections of cash. It doesn't happen by goodwill alone.
Brefugee · 08/09/2022 09:50
Why compare apples and pears? No logic there.
you are being willfully irritatiting. I DID NOT SAY THEY WERE THE SAME. I do know how companies with shareholders work though. And i know that they will do anything they can to increase dividends. Anything. And now I'm off because you just want to push that you are right and everyone else in the universe is wrong. You can donate my fiver to a foodbank, Liz.
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:51
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:44
What’s the comparative timescale? We need security quickly
Nuclear takes years, fracking not sure or wind
And they are investing in renewables - the sustainability lead OEUK made same point as op re windfall tax
At this point being fast is key
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:40
No. We don't need new sources of fossil fuel extraction that will cause irreversible catastrophic climate change. We need to vastly accelerate the transition into renewables. Every pound we spend on fossil fuels and every ton of new carbon we release into the atmosphere is inching us closer to disaster.
All investement should be put into a massive programme of energy conservation and insulation, local sustainable production (solar, air source heat pumps etc), public transport, wind, tidal etc etc, not opening up more gas fields!
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:37
We’ll need this and renewables though?
We need all types full speed
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
There will be no energy security if by pursuing new fossil fuel extraction we tip the climate into runaway irreversible system failure. If it's cold in your home, you don't make things better by setting your curtains on fire.
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:54
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:51
There will be no energy security if by pursuing new fossil fuel extraction we tip the climate into runaway irreversible system failure. If it's cold in your home, you don't make things better by setting your curtains on fire.
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:44
What’s the comparative timescale? We need security quickly
Nuclear takes years, fracking not sure or wind
And they are investing in renewables - the sustainability lead OEUK made same point as op re windfall tax
At this point being fast is key
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:40
No. We don't need new sources of fossil fuel extraction that will cause irreversible catastrophic climate change. We need to vastly accelerate the transition into renewables. Every pound we spend on fossil fuels and every ton of new carbon we release into the atmosphere is inching us closer to disaster.
All investement should be put into a massive programme of energy conservation and insulation, local sustainable production (solar, air source heat pumps etc), public transport, wind, tidal etc etc, not opening up more gas fields!
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:37
We’ll need this and renewables though?
We need all types full speed
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
We need all of it.
including expanding nuclear and other
It takes about a decade to do that and we have an issue right now.
Huge cash amounts make change possible faster - as we saw with the vaccine. It takes a large amount of investment to be fast
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 10:05
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:54
We need all of it.
including expanding nuclear and other
It takes about a decade to do that and we have an issue right now.
Huge cash amounts make change possible faster - as we saw with the vaccine. It takes a large amount of investment to be fast
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:51
There will be no energy security if by pursuing new fossil fuel extraction we tip the climate into runaway irreversible system failure. If it's cold in your home, you don't make things better by setting your curtains on fire.
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:44
What’s the comparative timescale? We need security quickly
Nuclear takes years, fracking not sure or wind
And they are investing in renewables - the sustainability lead OEUK made same point as op re windfall tax
At this point being fast is key
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:40
No. We don't need new sources of fossil fuel extraction that will cause irreversible catastrophic climate change. We need to vastly accelerate the transition into renewables. Every pound we spend on fossil fuels and every ton of new carbon we release into the atmosphere is inching us closer to disaster.
All investement should be put into a massive programme of energy conservation and insulation, local sustainable production (solar, air source heat pumps etc), public transport, wind, tidal etc etc, not opening up more gas fields!
MarshaBradyo · 08/09/2022 09:37
We’ll need this and renewables though?
We need all types full speed
MasterBeth · 08/09/2022 09:36
The planet cannot stand any additional fossil fuel extraction. Using the Russian war as an excuse to unlock even more carbon from where it's stored safely in the ground as gas and oil shows a total misunderstanding of the severity of the climate crisis.
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