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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think leaving the ECHR (European Court of Human Rights) is a cause for concern?

217 replies

WakeUpAndBeAwesome · 07/09/2022 10:25

On paper, the new Home Secretary, Suella Braverman, looks well qualified to understand the rule of law and flex her legal arm. She seems to be a competent lawyer (but being a good lawyer does not mean someone is also a ‘good person’).

I get that it’s easier for the government to win legal cases if they withdraw from the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR). Change the rules of the games to make it easier to win the game. I get it. But I don’t agree in principle because it’s not in the spirit of the game or rule of law. Some rules put players at a disadvantage, but they’re rules for a reason (reasons that need consideration).

Why do the plans to take the UK out the ECHR sound worrying?

To me, it’s because human right laws were hard won (do people who support getting rid of human rights laws realise that or care?). Once lost it’ll be even harder to win back human rights laws (and they may never be re-won again). Losing human rights protections under the ECHR is a slippery slope imo. We’re all humans with vulnerabilities, so we all benefit from the enforcement of human rights laws under ECHR.

OP posts:
caringcarer · 07/09/2022 15:06

I'm with Suella in this one. Immigrants coming from France are not slaves. Yet they use Human Rights 4 Freedom from slavery to resist being sent back to Rwanda. They are economic migrants and once they reach a safe country they should stop as no longer in danger. Instead they claim they are slaves. If they are slaves we should free them from slave masters and send them to safely in Rwanda.

SheeWeee · 07/09/2022 15:08

lollipoprainbow · 07/09/2022 14:42

, ALL humans deserve human rights.

Some really really don't .

Yes, they do. That's why they are called HUMAN rights/

KrisAkabusi · 07/09/2022 15:12

If they are slaves we should free them from slave masters and send them to safety in Rwanda.

And what if they're not safe in Rwanda? It hasn't got the greatest human rights record.

HowManyWaysAreThereToSayThatEverythingSucks · 07/09/2022 15:18

Yabu to think you might be unreasonable. Of course, it's hugely concerning.

I trust the ECHR more than the (current) British government to uphold Human rights. I don't want a watered down bill of rights.

Human rights exist to protect us from the arbitrary powers of the state. All of us. it doesn't matter if you are a potential terrorist, criminal or just someone the government doesn't like. We have them by virtue of being human. Anything else and you are on a very slippery slope of only being protected based on what a populist government likes to do. You just need to have a passion grasp of history to understand how vital they are in protecting us.

BewareTheLibrarians · 07/09/2022 15:19

@caringcarer Really interesting that you should raise all those points that have previously been debunked on the Rwanda threads. So you know they’re not true, and yet…

Also really interesting that you’ve missed that the Rwandan government has only committed to taking 200 asylum seekers.

“Rwanda only has the capacity to accommodate 200 Channel migrants, its government officials said as they admitted they were powerless to stop people from leaving in order to return to the UK.

Yolande Makolo, a spokesman for the Rwandan government, said the country only had one hostel with 200 spaces that was “ready” to receive migrants from the UK.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/07/22/rwanda-can-hold-just-200-channel-migrants-cant-stop-returning/

And where’s your proof that they’re all economic migrants? How does that explain why the government’s own Home Office assess 70-something% of arrivals as genuine asylum cases? Are you saying this government is completely incompetent? Do you know the procedure for assessing torture and slavery claims? Do you know why asylum seekers have higher incidences of slavery and torture? If you arrive in a safe country but cannot access housing, health care and education, does that mean it’s safe for you/your children?

Don’t panic, I’m not expecting any answers 😁

Tinytinseltown · 07/09/2022 15:24

There are a lot of complete fcking imbeciles on here complaining about the ECHR when what they are most concerned about falls under the jurisdiction of domestic statute and common law. I am so sick of people with no understanding of the legal framework bitching about things of which they know nothing.

It happened with Brexit, and we saw it coming with this. FFS if you want to live in a country ‘free’ from the ECHR you’re very welcome to move to Belarus, currently the sole European country that is not a signatory. Good luck, fuck off.

Thenose · 07/09/2022 15:52

PestorPeston · 07/09/2022 12:13

I think your degree may have been a poor investment. ECHR upholds the right to life.

Stop trying to score cheap points off someone's personal tragedy.

A better investment may also have prevented the OP from punishing readers with a confetti of unecessary commas.

JumpingPiglets · 07/09/2022 15:54

Victims of murder and their families are entitled to, and receive, protection under the ECHR.

Article 2 provides a right to life, giving right to a duty to investigate and an operational duty regarding certain types of safeguarding in certain circumstances.

A number of inquests engage this issue, and families receive compensation based upon it.

Thenose · 07/09/2022 15:57

*unnecessary

bibliomania · 07/09/2022 15:58

Interesting thoughts, RedToothBrush! Cynical but true that it's politically useful to have the ECHR to blame for things.

Bubblebubblebah · 07/09/2022 16:02

Honestly, do schools here not work with pupils on some critical thinking?

Times like these are when I am happy to have another passport to be able to bugger off when this turns into rightless 3rd world country😳
And prople don't care cause someone they don't like also has human rights. Good luck when you are the someone who doesn't deserve them in others' eyes....

RudsyFarmer · 07/09/2022 16:08

Culldesack · 07/09/2022 10:55

As I found out last night, you can't go against the grain, without inviting a pile on. I totally agree with you.

Most people do agree. They just keep those opinions to themselves.

OneTC · 07/09/2022 16:13

Interesting to think there are people who think that you can have too many human rights. They're not the kind of thing to wish away really.

Also worth considering that anything you give away now it's gone forever and whilst you may think this lot are okay the next government could consist of Darth Starmer and an army of gender fluid shocktroopers who will be more than happy to send you for reeducation, and it'll be inline with your "rights" as a citizen Grin

Leafy3 · 07/09/2022 16:19

@Bubblebubblebah the UK has already been downgraded to an "emerging" country :/

I don't care which side of the centre line you sit on, our human rights must be protected at all costs.

There's a reason people fought for them for so long and so hard. And there's a reason why a few very rich people want to get rid of them- that it's for the good of the country is well-used lie.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/09/2022 16:34

The Brits wrote the ECHR

Not quite; it was created by the Council of Europe, and while at the time that was chaired by a Brit (David Maxwell) they didn't exactly shove him in a corner and leave it all up to him

gatehouseoffleet · 07/09/2022 16:37

Leaving the ECHR would be a huge concern (and a breach of the GFA) but it is not happening. The Bill of Rights Act has been called in for review by the new government and insiders say it's dead. While I don't believe everything I read on Twitter, the info has been tweeted by reputable sources.

One little bit of good news. I hope.

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2022 16:44

bibliomania · 07/09/2022 15:58

Interesting thoughts, RedToothBrush! Cynical but true that it's politically useful to have the ECHR to blame for things.

twitter.com/RajivShah90/status/1567493045532213249

I was a spad in MOJ under Robert Buckland and, until yesterday, in the No 10 Policy Unit where I worked on constitutional issues for the past three years.

Thread on this important announcement [axing of the Bill of Rights]

TL;DR: This is great news but would be a mistake to see it from a left v right pov 1/

The ECHR and the Strasbourg Court create a number of difficulties for the UK, particularly in the field of immigration. But for better or for worse we are in the ECHR and subject to the jurisdiction of the Strasbourg Court and so we are bound by the judgments of that Court 2/

There is nothing that we can do on the domestic level to change the fact that we are bound by Strasbourg. The proposed Bill of Rights cannot do that. The only way to do so is to leave the ECHR
3/

Ultimately, the Bill of Rights sought to provide a domestic solution to a problem that only had an international solution. When you look at it, it has a number of provisions that look like red meat, but actually, it is a vegan steak 4/

Sadly, in this polarised political environment, many people have an interest in portraying things as being far more consequential than they are. So, lots of the activist groups and much of legal twitter talked about the Bill as if it was the worst possible thing 5/

This might have led the right to think that there was actually something consequential in the Bill. Reading the debates when the Bill was introduced that seemed to be the view of many tory MPs who thought that this would solve the small boats issue 6/

For example much has been made of cl 24 in light of the Rule 39 order stopping the Rwanda flight. But all this clause does is confirm that interim orders of the Strasbourg court are not automatically enforceable in domestic law. That's not new 7/

But - crucially - they remain binding in international law and that's why the UK complied with it and stopped the Rwanda flight. If cl 24 had been law none of that would have changed. So people who think that the Bill is necessary to deliver Rwanda would be disappointed 8/

Ultimately, this Bill would have been a political nightmare for the govt. It would have overpromised and underdelivered, the parliamentary passage would have been hell, and it would lead to very few gains for the government. 9/

Furthermore, it would mean that we would own it. When the deportation of a foreign national offender gets blocked it would no longer have because of 'Labour's Human Rights Act' but instead it would be because of the 'Tories Bill of Rights' 10/

So the issue is not whether you are a eurosceptic ERGer or a One Nationer, it is about whether you care about focusing the govt's limited political capital on effective reforms or whether something more cosmetic appeals 11/

To Liz Truss's credit, it looks like she wants to focus on effective reforms and so has wisely chosen to drop this Bill even if it might cause a backlash from the right of the party 12/

Make of that, what you will.

bibliomania · 07/09/2022 16:50

That makes sense.

Sirius3030 · 07/09/2022 16:59

Culldesack · 07/09/2022 11:16

Of course all of our rights will be affected. However, I would rather see rights being protected on an individual or common sense basis. It sticks in my throat to see a monster, who has carried out a heinous crime, to use the ECHR to get pity, aka justice.

This isn’t how law works.

WakeUpAndBeAwesome · 07/09/2022 18:36

Culldesack · 07/09/2022 11:48

Unfortunately, European Law, was part of my first degree. I am aware of its mechanism. I remember the laborious task of learning each Article.

What was your first degree? Law or International Law or (International) Politics?

OP posts:
LexMitior · 07/09/2022 18:46

Puzzledandpissedoff · 07/09/2022 16:34

The Brits wrote the ECHR

Not quite; it was created by the Council of Europe, and while at the time that was chaired by a Brit (David Maxwell) they didn't exactly shove him in a corner and leave it all up to him

It was written by English government lawyers, not the Council of Europe. They certainly had some useful suggestions but they didn't draft the text. I find ironic the UK complains about it.

Bubblebubblebah · 07/09/2022 18:48

WakeUpAndBeAwesome · 07/09/2022 18:36

What was your first degree? Law or International Law or (International) Politics?

Ha. As if anyone with law degree would produce arguments like here🙈

LexMitior · 07/09/2022 18:50

RedToothBrush · 07/09/2022 16:44

twitter.com/RajivShah90/status/1567493045532213249

I was a spad in MOJ under Robert Buckland and, until yesterday, in the No 10 Policy Unit where I worked on constitutional issues for the past three years.

Thread on this important announcement [axing of the Bill of Rights]

TL;DR: This is great news but would be a mistake to see it from a left v right pov 1/

The ECHR and the Strasbourg Court create a number of difficulties for the UK, particularly in the field of immigration. But for better or for worse we are in the ECHR and subject to the jurisdiction of the Strasbourg Court and so we are bound by the judgments of that Court 2/

There is nothing that we can do on the domestic level to change the fact that we are bound by Strasbourg. The proposed Bill of Rights cannot do that. The only way to do so is to leave the ECHR
3/

Ultimately, the Bill of Rights sought to provide a domestic solution to a problem that only had an international solution. When you look at it, it has a number of provisions that look like red meat, but actually, it is a vegan steak 4/

Sadly, in this polarised political environment, many people have an interest in portraying things as being far more consequential than they are. So, lots of the activist groups and much of legal twitter talked about the Bill as if it was the worst possible thing 5/

This might have led the right to think that there was actually something consequential in the Bill. Reading the debates when the Bill was introduced that seemed to be the view of many tory MPs who thought that this would solve the small boats issue 6/

For example much has been made of cl 24 in light of the Rule 39 order stopping the Rwanda flight. But all this clause does is confirm that interim orders of the Strasbourg court are not automatically enforceable in domestic law. That's not new 7/

But - crucially - they remain binding in international law and that's why the UK complied with it and stopped the Rwanda flight. If cl 24 had been law none of that would have changed. So people who think that the Bill is necessary to deliver Rwanda would be disappointed 8/

Ultimately, this Bill would have been a political nightmare for the govt. It would have overpromised and underdelivered, the parliamentary passage would have been hell, and it would lead to very few gains for the government. 9/

Furthermore, it would mean that we would own it. When the deportation of a foreign national offender gets blocked it would no longer have because of 'Labour's Human Rights Act' but instead it would be because of the 'Tories Bill of Rights' 10/

So the issue is not whether you are a eurosceptic ERGer or a One Nationer, it is about whether you care about focusing the govt's limited political capital on effective reforms or whether something more cosmetic appeals 11/

To Liz Truss's credit, it looks like she wants to focus on effective reforms and so has wisely chosen to drop this Bill even if it might cause a backlash from the right of the party 12/

Make of that, what you will.

What this means is the "Bill of Rights" is deader than a dead thing. There are plenty of Tories who support no change and so don't expect Raab's "solution in search of a problem" (thanks Robert Buckland) to re-emerge.

isadoradancing123 · 07/09/2022 18:52

Not a concern at all, far too many people have abused the system,

PetraBP · 07/09/2022 18:55

It’s so the Tories can have a referendum on bringing back the death penalty.

You heard it here first.