Aibu to not want a £15 minimum wage?

[Israisingwagesworthit]

This morning I saw a post saying there are calls for a £15 per hour minimum wage.

I understand fully that the current minimum wage doesn't give people enough to survive on and something needs to change to ensure everyone gets a comfortable living wage, and I support this.

However by pushing up the minimum wage doesn't that just add additional costs for businesses, therefore increase costs to consumers removing any benefit of an increased minimum wage in addition to reducing the disposable income and pay gap of anyone above minimum wage.

Surely this only benefits the government with additional income tax?

Is this the best option in a time of potential 18% inflation, would this not increase it further?

Capitalism is the issue, rather than sharing the profit wealth, CEO's (of all levels of business, small and large) keep the profits for themselves and just raise prices when costs go up.

Am i being unreasonable to assume that in order for the £15ph wage to be successful, companies must accept lower profits rather than increasing prices in line with the wage increase otherwise its just pointless and daminging to all wage earners not just the minimum wage.

Won't the government have to threaten windfall taxes to those who increase prices to maintain profits to make it work and to actually benefit minimum wage earners?

I'll admit I'm a middle earner (£40k) civil servant (so no chance of a payrise anytime soon) so would be financially damaged by a raise in minimum wage if nothing is done to stop the subsequently price increases of products after a minimum pay rise. As a result my view may be biased, but am I wrong?

Agree OP.

I was looking at the Enough is Enough campaign at the weekend off the back of another thread where it was linked. Whilst I could certainly get on board with one or two of their ideas their suggestion of a minimum wage of £15.00 (amongst other things) whilst on the face of it would be good for the
average Joe/Julie I think is more likely to put smaller companies out of business and people out of jobs.

Also, as a PP mentioned, there is no way I would work in my job which requires a certain qualification and lots of deadlines for what would be minimum wage. I’d be out of there ditching the deadlines and stress and getting a job in a supermarket where I clocked in at 9am clocked out at 5.30pm and didn’t think about work again until I clocked in the next day. What would be the incentive to stay put. If a lot people were to take similar action it would be hugely problematic for the economy, job market and the whole country’s working age population.

Personally, I would want to have much more detail than just the headline grabbing £15.00 minimum wage before I could get behind it.

Should not happen.

£15 for a 38 hour week is nearly £30k

All the people in difficult jobs paying £30k or less will just think 'fuck this hassle I will go and stack shelves in a supermarket for the same money'

Either you end up with people leaving teaching, policing, nursing etc in their droves OR you have to bump up these salaries to remian competitive which then pushes up prices of goods/services so those on the new minimum wage are still just as relatively poor as they were to begin with.

It would be an unmitigated disaster. I used to work in minimum wage and I worked bloody hard to get up the ladder to a near average wage. If people want more money then put the effort into progressing.

Enough with the I want I want I want.

I don’t know what the answer is but I earn about £15-£20 an hour and have a post graduate qualification and 15 yrs experience relevant to my job (charity sector, so not uncommon). It’s somewhat insulting that a school leaver would get the same.
Price of goods is going up in large part due to Brexit, as is hourly wages (because they literally cannot get the staff anymore). It’s a ridiculous situation to have inflation this high.

It's a tricky one. I have two jobs with the same third sector organisation, one salaried and one an hourly rate. When MW went up in April I went from earning £1 an hour over MW to 10p over, which was a bit of a knock to my self esteem. My organisation would not be able to afford £15 an hour and would have to make cuts, but my goodness it would make a difference to my life if the wage could go up and work not be affected.

So you'd rather have empty/derelict shops then?

Some people mistakenly think that minimum wage roles are not skilled roles.

Totally in the clouds if you think people would bother to become doctors, solicitors, whatever if they continue to have their pay devalued like currently. All that time, all those years of training, cost of all the training.
You’d be a fool to pick it
and Tralene’s comment is nonsense

I earn just under £15 an hour for a very stressful job at times. If the minimum wage was £15 an hour I'd be expecting an equivalent pay rise (as would everyone in a similar situation), or I'd be off to do a much lower stress job for my money.

I don't think it's sustainable.

Rather than a minimum wage how about a maximum ratio of say 10 between the highest and lowest 10% of wages. That way company bosses are encouraged to increase the wages of the lowest paid at the expense of profits, things are more equitable and wages do not fuel inflation.

@midgetastic I agree noone should work fulltime and claim benefits, yet its required and increasing minimum wage (and prices going up to cover it) could increase the of people who would need it.

There needs to be a complete restructure of businesses/companies to allow for fair working salaried of all workers.

I disagree with the education point though. I did my degree on top of a 40 hour working week, no social life, barely any sleep. I wrote my dissertation with a 4 week old and missed out alot from the first 4 weeks of my babies life. I 100% did it for the career prospects and money. I'd never put myself through a degree like that if it was for enrichment nor would i get into that level of debt for it, I'd read for pleasure or learn a language instead.

Not wanting a decent minimum wage ensures that millions stay in poverty and during a CoL crisis, forcing more into poverty. Companies like Sainsburys and British Gas keep posting record profits and yet barely pay their staff a wage to exist upon. If you are upset that your job doesn't pay enough compared to jobs that you consider to be inferior and should therefore be badly paid, you are part of the problem.

The problem is is that our attitudes are wrong: we've been told for years by politicians that getting a further education somehow makes people superior and that you should therefore be able to ensure that you are above those who didn't continue their education. That then means that people never want those who they perceive to be 'lower' to get a decent wage. It's a nasty cycle in which we refuse to acknowledge that no-one should live in poverty, and no-one should be forced to decide between heating and eating.

All the people in difficult jobs paying £30k or less will just think 'fuck this hassle I will go and stack shelves in a supermarket for the same money'

Either you end up with people leaving teaching, policing, nursing etc in their droves

… or these jobs become easier (maybe even perhaps enjoyable considering you’ve highlighted jobs that are traditionally considered vocations) because they’re not dealing with the consequences of poverty.

While everyone is feeling smug with their “higher than minimum wage” jobs. Just remember, many of these are absolutely necessary for the good of society. If everyone goes for a more well paid career, there would be no one left to do some of the absolutely essential roles needed in society

The issue with this is that whatever universal income is would turn out to be the new zero over time.

We cannot do away with greed; it is part of human nature, unfortunately, to exploit things and to try to gain an advantage from them.

So, say if everyone got a basic income of £1500 per month, regardless, after tax. What is then stopping landlords thinking, well, so-and-so can now afford to pay £750 in rent rather than the £400 they were paying before, because - well, they have more money? What is stopping retail from putting up prices, because everyone suddenly has just that little more disposable income?

Basic universal income - even if it could be funded somehow for populations as big as Britain's (let's not forget that where it has been trialled, populations are far smaller; where would all the money come from?) would only work for as long as everything else stays stagnant. Which it simply won't.

If minimum wage is higher it means tax payers don't have to pay to top up so many peoples wages. Less money spent on benefits so inflation balances out.

… or these jobs become easier (maybe even perhaps enjoyable considering you’ve highlighted jobs that are traditionally considered vocations) because they’re not dealing with the consequences of poverty

There will still be poverty if the minimum wage goes up. The wage needs to be paid for so the prices for goods and services go up.

The only difference will be people are on poverty with a £2k take home rather than a £1200 take home.

Yes, that's the point, teaching is seen as highly desirable and teachers are respected partly because only the very best are allowed to do it. Conditions are very different to here. We could reset our society by saying only the top graduates are allowed to work in social care. Won't hold my breath.

I disagree with the education point though. I did my degree on top of a 40 hour working week, no social life, barely any sleep. I wrote my dissertation with a 4 week old and missed out alot from the first 4 weeks of my babies life. I 100% did it for the career prospects and money. I'd never put myself through a degree like that if it was for enrichment nor would i get into that level of debt for it, I'd read for pleasure or learn a language instead.

And that really solidly supports my point. What about those people who are not academically minded and able to do what you chose to do? Should they live in poverty because their skills are manual instead of intellectual? That's an elitist mindset and super unfair.

In my opinion, minimum wage should be raised to the point at which government doesn't need to supplement working salaries with universal credit. If government then choose to subsidise certain industries due to high wage cost but other added value, then great and it is clear what businesses receive that support. Subsidising business profits while the businesses don't pay a living wage does not make sense. If there is a smaller gap between the lowest and highest paid, then that is an improvement for society generally. The £15/hr or even the £40k/yr might need tax adjustments due to cost of living as well, but that's entirely separate to wages.

YABU to think lower earners shouldn't have a better wage when you're on a decent salary yourself.

I do get what you're saying, and your concerns about the wider economy, but in reality you would be largely unaffected by this and even if you were slightly worse off as a result, you'd still be better off than people on minimum wage.

If at £15 an hour it removes the entire need for top up benefits for the employed that'd be good. Just think how much money that'd save. Assuming people could actually work a full week.

But self-employment will be forced to up their rates too.

"Just remember, many of these are absolutely necessary for the good of society. If everyone goes for a more well paid career, there would be no one left to do some of the absolutely essential roles needed in society"

They think they are easy roles that any teenager can do. See the recent thread where people thought that caring roles could be filled by 15 year olds on work experience.

You're far too sensible for MN! Basic economics are a foreign language it seems.

How do you enforce that with international employers? We already have major problems with overseas companies operating from tax havens!

Yes there will still be poverty, but less. If the minimum wage actually covered the cost of things then it follows there are less issues caused by lack of finance.

Or, again, we can look at the problem from the other end and make sure that there are resources (such as housing - clearly my bugbear ) that is affordable on a minimum wage. There are much better, arguably cheaper, ways of utilising public funds to support the lowest earners than direct payment benefits.