Aibu to not want a £15 minimum wage?

[Israisingwagesworthit]

This morning I saw a post saying there are calls for a £15 per hour minimum wage.

I understand fully that the current minimum wage doesn't give people enough to survive on and something needs to change to ensure everyone gets a comfortable living wage, and I support this.

However by pushing up the minimum wage doesn't that just add additional costs for businesses, therefore increase costs to consumers removing any benefit of an increased minimum wage in addition to reducing the disposable income and pay gap of anyone above minimum wage.

Surely this only benefits the government with additional income tax?

Is this the best option in a time of potential 18% inflation, would this not increase it further?

Capitalism is the issue, rather than sharing the profit wealth, CEO's (of all levels of business, small and large) keep the profits for themselves and just raise prices when costs go up.

Am i being unreasonable to assume that in order for the £15ph wage to be successful, companies must accept lower profits rather than increasing prices in line with the wage increase otherwise its just pointless and daminging to all wage earners not just the minimum wage.

Won't the government have to threaten windfall taxes to those who increase prices to maintain profits to make it work and to actually benefit minimum wage earners?

I'll admit I'm a middle earner (£40k) civil servant (so no chance of a payrise anytime soon) so would be financially damaged by a raise in minimum wage if nothing is done to stop the subsequently price increases of products after a minimum pay rise. As a result my view may be biased, but am I wrong?

Some larger organisations are more likely to deal with the rise, although many wouod still pass on

Smaller wouldn’t be and I do think it’s shortsighted to say not viable fine to lose them. Many people wouldn’t be better off they’d be unemployed.

Right now businesses are up against it with energy costs causing going up massively. They don’t get a cap like we do.

My work can barely afford to pay me now (£11.50) non profit

I work for a charity, I earn more than minimum wage but less than 15 an hour. If all of our salaries have to go up to £15/h I expect we will go bankrupt, or a large number of us will lose our jobs.

You're quite right @Breezycheesetrees. Many charities would be unsustainable if this level of minimum wage was introduced.

I guess some charities could cut staff to increase wages for those who remained, but this would mean significantly reducing the number of clients they could help. The question would be whether their funders would continue to perceive that approach as offering value for money, or whether they would ultimately choose to withdraw their funding.

Also, replicate this across the whole sector and that's a lot of newly unemployed people needing support...

Yes, absolutely. A disaster waiting to happen.

A pp suggested that it would be ok for charities to fold as the state would have to pick up the pieces, but someone would still have to pay for that. The reality is, it just wouldn't happen, and vulnerable people would lose the support.

Local authorities already have no money as it is. There is no way they could pick up all of the extra support provided by the third sector, and certainly not on top of managing the impact of their own exploding wage bill.

Who said a minimum wage job was an 'easier' job?

@Anothernamechangeplease

If the great majority are already working a substantial number of hours for the NHS (we haven't discussed where the minimum requirement should be set), then my proposals would not impact on them negatively at all. Quite the contrary, I am saying that NHS doctors should pay less towards their training, not more.

So your great idea could actually cost the taxpayer more not less.

Some consultants might leave the profession if they had to work in the NHS or if they had to repay more of their tuition costs, I suppose, but I am not sure that losing people who are motivated solely by how much money they can make are really the kind of doctors that we want anyway.

The fact that someone doesn't want to work in the NHS doesn't mean they're motivated solely by money. Lots of people wouldn't want to work in the NHS. Do you work in the NHS? What do you mean they are not the kind of doctors “we want”. Unless you get private treatment they're not going to treat you so what's it got to do with you? If other people want to buy their services that's up to them.

YABU Why should people go hungry and cold because a business screws it's workers? If you can't pay a decent wage, don't bother employing people. Why should the tax payer subsidise companies like Tesco who pay their workers less than they can live on?

CEOs pay themselves too much. Shareholders get higher dividends with each payout. These overpaid executives in companies earning billions in profits and shares salt it away, often offshore. It should be returned to use via heavy taxation. Profits should be invested in maintenance, repair, and modernisation.

Thanks to neo liberalism, uncontrolled capitalism, and naked greed, Britain is broken. In the main, people are treated appallingly by greedy employers who have whittled away the ability of the average employee to have a decent life and save for the future.

And government seems to be doing little or nothing to prevent starvation and death from cold for some, this winter.

I have an idea you can do my very stressful job for the 10.25 an hour don't wory no one is going to give 15.00 an hour for minimum wage before you say get a better paid job remember someone has to do the crap paid jobs

Yes, it might well cost the taxpayer more, especially if money was invested in improving conditions for NHS staff. The point of it wasn't to save money but rather to provide incentives for people to stay in the NHS and to stop subsidising the training of those who choose to go into private practice.

And yes, of course, it isn't for me to say what type of doctors other people should or shouldn't be willing to pay for. That's entirely up to them. I was talking about the kind of doctors that we, as taxpayers, might want to fund the training for.

If people want to pay for private treatment, then I think it's reasonable for them to pay towards the cost of their doctors' medical training too, rather than expecting this to be subsidised by the state.

@Anothernamechangeplease

You need to do some research!

Medical students use student loans to fund their course fees in their entirety for the first 4 years. In the 5th year they can claim an NHS contribution towards fees. This contribution is less than £3000 and at this point in the training they are WORKING in the NHS unpaid!

I don't need to do any research, I'm well aware of everything you have said in this post, not least because my dd is applying for medicine and I've been looking at what it is going to cost her/us over the course of her degree.

However, my understanding is that the actual cost of training a doctor is well in excess of £200k. Even with the eye watering fees that medical students have to pay, I do not believe that anyone has students loans that amount to that much? I am not quite sure why you think the taxpayer didn't contribute to the cost of your training?

Yes, medical students and doctors have to work ridiculously hard. Yes, working conditions are shit and should be improved. That doesn't mean that there isn't still a huge investment bt the taxpayer in the training of medical students, and as such, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect them to work in the NHS or repay that additional investment made by the taxpayer.

can I check you understand the following?

1. CEOs don’t keep profit “for themselves”…? The profit, if any, does to the directors of the company / shareholders - they are rewarded, if they add value to the market (ie peoples lives), for taking financial risk
2. reference companies accepting lower profits - often the shareholders are pension funds ie it’s pensioners that get less

I’m assuming not as your post seems written from the perspective of profits are bad and the top are greedy…

I worked far far more unpaid hours during my degree than I received in support from the tax payer. My student debts are astronomical. I owe the taxpayer nothing.

If your DD goes into medicine you will see this for yourself soon enough. However if this was my DD I would urge them to do anything else! Look at the research behind metal health issues and suicide rates for junior doctors. Why anyone would encourage their child to be exposed to that is beyond me!

And then to try and argue they should be forced to stay in the NHS longer when they eventually break and can’t cope any longer. Or face massive penalties for leaving (on top of their enormous debts). Honestly you haven’t got the slightest clue!

I'm not encouraging her to be exposed to it in the slightest. If anything, I would far prefer that she did something else, but she funnily enough, she has her own mind and she wants to do it anyway. She has spoken to loads of people and done tons of research. She has tried to put herself off. She still wants to do it anyway. It isn't my decision.

I get how hard it is. Really, I do. I just don't think the answer is for people to have to escape the NHS because the working conditions are so fucking awful. That can't be the answer. The issues that are causing doctors to leave need to be addressed, rather than allowing them to fester and get worse while doctors are leaving in their droves.

We should fund medical training properly for those who want to work in the NHS and we should create decent conditions that make it sustainable for them to stay in the NHS, but I don't think the taxpayer should be subsidising private health care. Sorry if that annoys you, but I just don't agree with that.

You are absolutely spot on correct !
I wrote to Labours front bench before last election, trying to explain why they would get decimated if they didn't wise up . To this & more...!
They got decimated.
But, most ppl don't seem to get the bigger picture...still !!!

So well done for seeing it !
It's a trick they've used for a very long time & still they demand ' more money '. Fools !!
Wrong way around...
Demand lower prices & living costs...strike for that principle.
This is the only sensible way to do it .

Also, similarly, a 10k salary payrise of 10% = 11k. You gain 1k.
But your boss on 100k gains 10k.= 110 k

The difference pre the rise, was 90k
After the rise, boss has 99k more than you.
And so it goes on & on.

Sometimes I think many deserve to be great like crap, Coz this seems pretty obvious to me.
But....the RMT, junior Drs, barristers all want a " pay rise !

Cap the profits , focus on the ' capital- ists '.....they created this misleading System.

I often despair the lack of common sense.

Except that won’t happen!

Because actually making the NHS a decent place to work would cost far far far more than the penalties applied to those leaving it due to those conditions. So it won’t happen.

All your idea achieves is punishing those who after dedicating their lives to help others, saddling thousands in debt as a result simply can’t see any other way out then to leave. Taking away that one escape by imposing financial penalties will push even more to suicide. And female doctors are already 4 times more likely to take their own lives.

Come back and read your comments when it’s your daughter coming home in tears every single night. Only then will you see how ignorant they are.

Drs don't get paid enough ?
Or have to work " too hard "?
Upside down again !
There are too many other positions paid far too much...eg many local Gove AND NHS senior managers.

And NO NO NO......If your country funds your training , you pay it back when you can AND Drs are obliged to work in the State System which allowed them their privileged status.

Absolutely sickens me....seen it so many times....foreign students join family here, take State medical / dental training, set up privately & earn a fortune.
Disgusting & taking the p"SS totally.

If the work is too ' hard for them ' , then they are not up to doing it. Simple !
Can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen & get work at the level you were born for.

Honestly, whining pathetic users who want everything .
Want to be ' private '?
Well fck off to America or similar, pay for your training, & do it yourself !
No, tax payers do NOT need wimpy scrounging egotist like you !!

Firstly, if doctors didn't agree prior to training that they would pay the cost of their training if they left the NHS it can't be imposed respectively. There would be massive push back from all doctors, regardless of whether it affected them personally and I'm not sure if it would be legal anyway.

Secondly, people who pay for private treatment have paid towards the cost of doctor’s medical training if they are taxpayers.

Thirdly, I'm not sure where you get the idea that the UK tax payer is not getting its money’s worth with regard to training doctors. As I said few doctors are entirely private and those that are will have worked for the NHS for many years.
If anyone should be complaining it's the countries whose doctors we have taken after they have trained them (e.g. India), not the UK taxpayer. The NHS trains fewer doctors than it employs, not the other way around.

Yes, it would cost more. I'm not for a minute suggesting that it would pay for itself. The taxpayer needs to invest in a decent health care system that meets the needs of our changing population. I don't think it's impossible, but I do think it requires the political will and the courage to do what's needed. And some kind of cross-party collaboration that looks at the longer term.

I don't want to take away escape routes for people who are struggling. I want us to address the reasons why they are struggling. Yes, I will find it very difficult if dd ends up struggling with her mental health etc, but I don't think having everyone opt out to do private health care is the solution.

I'm sorry that you're obviously struggling as much as you are. Genuinely, I am, and I am not in the least belittling how hard it is or judging individuals for making the decisions that they need to make to preserve their sanity. I am just saying that we need to fix the underlying problems rather than merely preserving the escape routes.

most people in this thread are STILL trying to square the circle within our current set up.
The current setup is a race to the bottom.
What is needed is a rethink about the society we want - and yes, that includes making the NHS somewhere people want to work, and can work without burnout. Properly funded and resourced and still free at the point of use.

I would LOVE to see you work 80 hour weeks for £30k a year! Because that’s what junior doctors get, not rolling in money like you seen to think.

And I’ve already said several times. Tax payers DO NOT fund medical training. It’s funded via student loans the same as any other training. The NHS contributes LESS THAN £3000 in total to the training and they work thousands of hours unpaid during that training.

Doctors “fuck off to America” because the working conditions are vile, the pay is crap, the debt they carry is crippling and idiot members of the public like you haven’t got the slightest clue what it’s really like.

If you think it’s so privileged then train as a doctor yourself!

As someone in an allied healthcare profession I would do ANY OTHER job in the entire world before I worked as a junior doctor.

But how lovely of you to think that those multiple suicides are because they are not good enough and not because of the toxic working environment. Want to engage in some more victim blaming while you’re here?

I don't know about unreasonable, but your politics and economics are all over the place.
You blame capitalism then defend market forces.
You do not distinguish between price-driven and wage-driven inflation.
You are a civil servant paid out of the income tax you want kept down, yet dislike government intervention.
This £15 is the same £10 it was two years ago. It's worth the same: nothing more.

I'm not suggesting that it should be imposed retrospectively. I agree that you couldn't do that. But you could make it clear to prospective students that this was what they were signing up for.

Everytime similar is suggested, businesses say they cannot afford to give pay rises and their business will not survive, but it never seems to happen.