Aibu to not want a £15 minimum wage?

[Israisingwagesworthit]

This morning I saw a post saying there are calls for a £15 per hour minimum wage.

I understand fully that the current minimum wage doesn't give people enough to survive on and something needs to change to ensure everyone gets a comfortable living wage, and I support this.

However by pushing up the minimum wage doesn't that just add additional costs for businesses, therefore increase costs to consumers removing any benefit of an increased minimum wage in addition to reducing the disposable income and pay gap of anyone above minimum wage.

Surely this only benefits the government with additional income tax?

Is this the best option in a time of potential 18% inflation, would this not increase it further?

Capitalism is the issue, rather than sharing the profit wealth, CEO's (of all levels of business, small and large) keep the profits for themselves and just raise prices when costs go up.

Am i being unreasonable to assume that in order for the £15ph wage to be successful, companies must accept lower profits rather than increasing prices in line with the wage increase otherwise its just pointless and daminging to all wage earners not just the minimum wage.

Won't the government have to threaten windfall taxes to those who increase prices to maintain profits to make it work and to actually benefit minimum wage earners?

I'll admit I'm a middle earner (£40k) civil servant (so no chance of a payrise anytime soon) so would be financially damaged by a raise in minimum wage if nothing is done to stop the subsequently price increases of products after a minimum pay rise. As a result my view may be biased, but am I wrong?

That's exactly what has been happening. No tax nor NIC on earnings up to £12,570, which is a whopping increase in the thresholds over the past decade or so.

That sounds physically stressful but ultimately he didn't have to go home and worry about whether his mistake harmed or killed anyone did he?

@Alexandra2001 teachers weren't needed in lockdown?! What about the teachers that went into school still to look after the vulnerable children and children of key workers? Schools didn't close. And what about all the other teachers planning and delivering lessons over zoom to children at home? People have a short memory.

Isn’t this only half the equation?

The higher wage pushes up prices for the business which causes inflation

I didn't suggest they opt out in fact I said it was foolish to opt out but min wage workers have the same worries & needs.

I've also said teachers deserve higher salaries.

but neither you nor anyone has said why they need a higher salary ONLY & BECAUSE workers on min wage having their salary raised.

The whole package of teaching is better than those of supermarket workers. And yes as I've said that includes, status, holidays, employers contributions, self respect, not having to go out to work weekends and Christmas Day etc

I find all these professional people on here professing that they will work in supermarkets if the wage is £15 an hour utterly laughable, if it wasn't so Sneery & horrible.

But as I said earlier on for those who just need to "feel better" than someone else.. there's nothing else to say.

You're missing the reduced corporation tax income to the Govt, from the reduced business profits because they're now paying 50% higher wages, so any saving in benefits will be outweighed by lost tax revenue!

We simply cannot keep getting tax payers to subsidise the profits of large profitable companies

Amen to that!

Many professionals including healthcare professionals don't sit down all day and work unsocial hours too. On top of that they get a lot of responsibility and stress. You are deluded if you don't think any of them would swap for a “boring job” with no responsibility but the same pay.

I don't think I am deluded. Menial work means working just to pay the bills - there's little respect or status, and the repetition of the same task over and over. There's a physical and mental toll - not because you are saving lives but because you are flipping burgers. You really think humans would prefer doing something meaningless 40-70 hours per week for 50 years because it pays the same as saving lives? That's quite cynical.

And the prize for the stupidest reply goes to....

I worked in a supermarket for 4 years. I have been a teacher for 3. I would LOVE to go back to the supermarket, if it was paid the same. It was easy and carefree.

OK lets take nurses as an example. If nurses get paid minimum wage of £15 per hour, they will be paying back student debt and therefore their take home pay will be less than someone working in a job that requires no skills, qualifications or experience. This will continue until they move up the scale enough which will take years (student loan repayments are really quite high). You really can't see why this would be unappealing? Of course people go into nursing for vocational reasons, but actually it is pay that tends to keep people there as the realities of the horrendous working conditions come to light. Many nurses find it hard to move on into another role with similar pay, so are stuck. Putting them on minimum wage certainly removes that problem, so good good luck retaining any nurses.

You really think humans would prefer doing something meaningless 40-70 hours per week for 50 years because it pays the same as saving lives?

Some of those who have already done the latter would, yes. Because the pleasant notion of "saving lives" doesn't mitigate the stress, fear, burnout, compassion fatigue, exhaustion, etc.

Exactly.

Plus we have a massive productivity problem rn. Businesses would do well to be plugging that which will also avert any potential inflationary spiral.

And ofc the very best way to get inflation under control is to stop printing money.

Do both of those things and increase wages and to there's a good chance of getting out of this with less pain.

Or keep wages as they are (ie depressed), keep printing money, keep throwing state benefits at working people and watch as we spiral into a winter of actual physical hardship for the lowest four income deciles while executive pay and asset acquisition skyrockets.

If £15 is the bottom of the heap, waitress say, then head waitress, restaurant manager will expect £2ph more minimum because of their responsibility

Pot washer £15 then anyone above this menial back break-in job will expect more

Teaching assistant £15 per hour, then what are teachers worth

Hospital cleaner £15 ph what's a porter, nurse worth

The solution would be to put most people on £15 per hour. We'd level up then.

Of course it would cause a wage spiral. It would not only be the people who are currently on minimum wage who need a wage increase. Anyone currently on less than £15 would need a pay rise. Many on a bit more than £15 would expect a pay rise too or you would get managers receiving the same amount as their staff. Many of those people including those currently on minimum wage are not receiving benefits. Not everyone minimum wage is in in debt. Not everyone in debt is on minimum wage.

Minimum wage is no where near enough to live even a basic life in this current climate. And as you’ve pointed out, other salaries would also need to increase otherwise, people who’ve studied for years, worked hard and sacrificed so much to gain a qualification in a skilled sector will be demoralised earning the same amount as a supermarket assistant. My kids need their teachers, we need our doctors and businesses need managers.

But, I also don’t think it’s fair that CEOs get the slack that they do. They’re not all multi-millionaires. If they can’t take a good amount of profit then what’s the point in doing what they do? I don’t think many understand the work and sacrifice that goes into to starting up a business, ploughing savings into it that could be lost, getting the work in, getting the right candidates, keeping it afloat so everyone still has a job by the end of the year, making sure all legislation is followed and accounts up to date. My husband works 7 days a week, days, evenings and weekends. He’s missed out on so much of our young children, and we’ve missed out on him. He worries day and night incase contracts end unexpectedly and his staff won’t have work. He’s out there marketing his business to get more contracts on top of the nitty gritty of the job. He pays the staff above minimum wage, they do the job Monday to Friday and then go home to their families, leaving work at work. My husband doesn’t get to do that, so it’s not true that it’s just the staff that make all the money whilst the CEOs sit back and hoard it all.

If minimum wage went up to £15 an hour and it had to come out of the profits then they’d be no point in him working his fingers, brain and heart to the bone and he’ll close. His staff will then have no work, never mind a wage increase.

but, what he does do is offer his staff free courses. If they do the courses and gain experience he will put them forward for the more responsible and better paid roles rather than advertising externally to fill them. His staff aren’t interested though, they just want to do their job and go home which is fair enough - if they’re happy on their current wage, most are not though which is ironic.

I agree with a previous poster that workers should be encouraged to better themselves, gain skills and the confidence to aim higher. There are highly paid jobs out there but it’s hard work that people need to be willing to do. As a single mum many years ago I worked my minimum wage 40 hour a week job and studied at home during evenings and weekends. Yes me and my child missed out on much quality time together, but it takes sacrifice to create a better life on top of the actual work.

Having done a job that saves lives, I agree. I wouldn't have felt like that at the start of my career, but after a few years the responsibility wears you down.

@missbunnyrabbit wins the award for the stupidest most lacking of empathy & most ignorant poster on this thread.

YOUR minimum wage easy peasy fun supermarket job was a temporary role which you were able to leave behind as you were off to bigger & better things.

It was NOT your life.

Grow some
Empathy & decency.

We are not for profit, so we don't pay dividends and we don't pay huge salaries to senior management.

We are a charity that helps some of the most vulnerable in our society. Maybe we're not viable if we can't afford to pay all of our staff £15 an hour or more, but if we stop operating, a whole lot of vulnerable people will suffer. And the taxpayer will have to pick up the tab.

In 10 years time there won't be a need for fruit pickers, or shelf stickers, or warehouse workers, it will all be automated with few people managing the machines.

People have been saying that for 30+ years. We might have moved closer to that, but especially with fruit picking, there are so many more tech hurdles to get through to make it remotely viable at scale.

For even longer, we've been told that this automation would mean we all work less hours and a myriad of other things that also haven't happened. If anything, we're pushed to work more to be productive and to diversify our income with side hustles and gigs.

Yeah, we need a cultural shift well beyond just raising the minimum wage, but as it stands, the minimum wage is currently basically variable with a portion paid by the government and another portion by employer(s). For some, it's already £15+ an hour if you add their in-work benefits on top of their wage. The question on wages is how much of it should employers vs government be responsible for (whether through the current Tax Credit and UC system, or UBI/UBS system), not just about raising it, as part of that cultural shifting.

You're all still thinking inside the box.
If housing didn't take such a chunk of wages and cause so much stress... if utilities didn't take such a chunk of wages and cause so much stress... if the NHS were properly funded, resourced and used (by the end usefs)... if being a SAHP didn't potentially lead to poverty in case of relationship breakdown...

Tax loopholes should be closed (or tightened then closed), higher earners should pay more tax, corporations should pay (more) tax, windfall profits should be taxed accordingly, pay restraint among CEOs should be a thing,

just talking about an uplift to the NMW in the society we're now in leads to at least 14 pages of partially incoherent bumble

Sad. I would have thought they would rather stay in their profession and progress. Well, private cleaners charge up to £18ph so I suppose most of them must be ex healthcare professionals, barristers, teachers who find the job so much more pleasant they are prepared to give up their profession. I do know a few cleaners, by the way, and they are not doing it because they gave up nursing, law or teaching for the good life.

Yes sorry I did correct myself in the subsequent post. I meant inflation not wage spiral.

@beachcitygirl If your staff earn less than £15 an hour they are financially precarious themselves and may well become "vulnerable" (if they have children) this coming winter. They'll already be claiming state benefits themselves as it is.

So, are you really helping?

"In the event of an emergency, secure your own breathing apparatus first."

DS fresh out of university is thrilled to have got a job on 22k per annum. Because he's done the relevant job for the last four years in the holidays he was offered more. The flat hunting however is a nightmare. Rents still rising, properties gone in hours. £800 upwards pcm for one bedroom 🙈

@Cyclemarine
Hmm yet another person who worked in a supermarket as a stop FAO commenting.

You knew you had a way out. Not comparable.

Secondly, are you seriously so lacking in empathy that you think supermarket workers don't see their regular customers coming to the fill & having to put food back as not able to afford it, or are people shoplifting baby formula, or see the homeless people outside waiting by the bins for food or worry that if they refuse to go to work at a minutes notice even if their own child is ill or needs them at a weekend or holiday that they will be unemployed in a heartbeat & visiting food banks.

Do you genuinely not recognise the soul crushing degradation of monotonous minimum wage work where you have to ask to go to the loo as well as the very human empathetic issues of worry you describe as being only teachers experiencing.

Or do you just not care.