AIBU to wonder if this is discriminatory by The Breastfeeding Network?

[MPharm]

Today a friend shared a Facebook post advertising a voluntary opportunity for pharmacists to work with The Breastfeeding Network to provide advice on medications during breastfeeding. This is a large part of my day job so I had a look out of interest. One of the essential criteria is 'experience of breastfeeding at least one baby for four months'. As a childless woman I therefore cannot apply. This role is not peer support, or help to establish breastfeeding. It is a pharmacist role advising on the passage of drugs into breastmilk. I can't see why lived experience is essential. AIBU to wonder if this is discrimination? AFAIK being childless is not a protected characteristic, but is infertility? Sex is, so it's surely at least discrimination against men.

In addition, someone has commented on their post expressing her sadness she cannot apply as she breastfed for less than 4 months. The reply says if she 'breast/chest fed at all' she may be considered. So their language can be inclusive of some groups, but not child-free women?

I think the role sounds quite poorly thought-out and not really suitable for a volunteer. I’d also (if it were me) be very worried about giving women this sort of advice on FB without knowing their medical history etc. Isn’t this what doctors are for?

ah come on, Doctors know nothing about breastfeeding practicalities unless they have lived experience too. They end up googling just like us. Midwife can be useful but they discharge patients after 28 days; HVs can be useful but they have a huge remit of other things to think about. HV won't be considering person's medical history either (unlikely to have access to that).

I perceive that most of breastfeeding support is about instilling confidence not actual technical knowledge.

@lljkk well maybe it's just me then, but technical help was exactly what I needed. I had all the confidence in the world, certainly didn't need help with that!

Agree that it doesn’t sound like that’s a requirement for the job so it’s discrimination (most likely sex discrimination).

Give over. As well as excluding men it also excludes childless women, mothers who bottle fed and mothers who breastfed for less than four months.

I'm not a pharmacist so wouldn't be qualified for the role anyway, but I only breast fed for two months as I had to go back on medication that is contraindicated for breast feeding in order to control a chronic condition as I was so unwell. The condition is considered a 'disability'. I think that sort of experience would be very relevant to the role. So yes, I agree it's discriminatory, not only to men as you say, but potentially to those with disabilities preventing them from breast feeding, or even having children.

Have a think whether you want to work for such an employer. They'll work it out when very few, or no one applies

@MPharm

What dud you mean by this

Possibly another reason they're targeting mothers

In terms of it being a volunteer role?

OP said she doesn’t have children so this might raise a few red flags 😂

Have a think whether you want to work for such an employer. They'll work it out when very few, or no one applies

It's not an employer
It's not work
It's a voluntary, unpaid position, which the OP has said she has no intention of applying for.

This thread is getting a bit "cancel the cheque".

It's a volunteer role, not a job. There's no employer, no employment and no employment discrimination.

It's a volunteer role requiring breast feeding support training. The BFN requires their bf supporters to have breastfed.

You'd expect people who are willing to give up several hours of their week to volunteer for a breastfeeding organisation to have a strong interest in supporting breastfeeding mothers, and the most likely people to want to do this are those who have breastfed.

I don't see a single post on this thread from anyone who is interested in giving their time, but somehow there's still a sense that it's unfair to some entirely hypothetical qualified pharmacist who has never breastfed but nonetheless feels driven to devote their time volunteering and is being denied the chance.

I've never kept exotic birds as pets. It wouldn't occur to me to try to volunteer for a charity giving help and advice to exotic bird keepers. If I saw a volunteer position in a charity with those aims I wouldn't be at all upset to see an advert asking for volunteers who have kept birds of their own: obviously those will be the people with the knowledge and inclination to help that group of people.

I would like to hear from those who don't have lived experience of breastfeeding what would motivate you to volunteer your time to give breastfeeding advice to women who are currently breastfeeding?

As this is a volunteer role, where you give your time freely, please share

-what would motivate you to do this?
-what would you get out of it?
-what benefits would the breastfeeding women get from your experience?
-what would make you a better volunteer in this role, than someone with lived experience?

I would be fascinated to know.

@Topgub I'd assume the majority of non-parents who are pharmacists work full-time or close to it and can't give up every Friday at 10am for a few months, and then 4-6 hours a week on a flexible basis. That's all I meant, mums might be more likely to work part time or not at all. Although you'd assume that's because they have childcare commitments.

@MajorCarolDanvers From my POV, it would be CV-building and would potentially give me an edge at interview. It would be good work experience for those looking to move into neonatal care/Women's Health. Breastfeeding women would get the benefit of many years of pharmacy knowledge and experience, and professional advice from someone with lots of experience using specialist Drugs in BF resources. I don't think I'd be a better candidate than everyone with lived experience of BF, but I don't think I'd necessarily be worse, and I'd certainly be better than a lot due to my specific area of practice (obs and gyn).

To clarify, I'm not looking for an argument, I'm taking you at face value that you genuinely are interested to know. I've done lots of unpaid/poorly paid work to get where I am. I do other healthcare-related but unpaid extra-curriculars too.

From my POV, it would be CV-building and would potentially give me an edge at interview.

All about you and not about the mothers you would be helping. Or not helping, as you have no intention of applying. You just wanted to have a wee pop at the BfN.

@WhereAreMyAirpods PP asked what my specific motivation would be. Obviously as a HCP the desire to help people permeates our whole training/purpose. But my motivation to work full-time is money. My motivation for undertaking unpaid work would also have to benefit me. Nobody is entirely altruistic. And I wanted to have a big pop at them actually.

Because you clearly have no concept of the role and function of a BfN drug in breastmilk breastfeeding counsellor. They are breastfeeding counsellors with specialist knowledge. They would be expected to go through the full counsellor training before being let loose. You seem to think the role is giving yes/no responses to "can I take X drug" questions when that is just a minor part of the overall role which is about supporting, encouraging, sharing experiences and giving breastfeeding guidance and advice.

And you can't share experience because you haven't done it, you can't give specific advice because you have not mentioned your specific breastfeeding counsellor or IBCLC training.

So exactly what is your point given that you had zero intention of applying to volunteer in hte first place?

@WhereAreMyAirpods do you work for the BFN? You seem to have a lot of insider knowledge about the way they work and your language suggests you are Scottish which is where they are based?

Nope. I have no affiliation. I was a breastfeeding counsellor volunteer - not a "worker" - with a different organisation but regularly signposted mothers to their Drugline service. I am Scottish but was not living in Scotland when I was a breastfeeding counsellor.

Any mum who has breastfed knows how hard it is to get timely, professional advice from someone who can deal with all of the issues she is facing. OP might do a good job of discussing the effects of a particular medication on breastmilk. But that's potentially 10% of the overall problem. People who are not breastfeeding counsellors or who have not even breastfed their own children cannot have the skills needed. It is doing a huge disservice to mums who are reaching out for help to give the half the advice they need and then send them off elsewhere to get the rest of it. Which is why BfN and the other charities who train peer supporters (Assoc of Bf Mothers, NCT) all demand that their counsellors and peer supporters have all fed their own children.

@MPharm fair enough

@WhereAreMyAirpods

Any mum who has breastfed knows how hard it is to get timely, professional advice from someone who can deal with all of the issues she is facing

Completely agree with this.

My health visitor was useless for BF advice after about 4 months because I was the only client she had still breastfeeding. All the other mums had switched to formula by then. Every time I had a BF questions she consulted google for the answer - because she hadn't breastfed and she wasn't used to dealing with breastfeeding women after the newborn stage. A person with lived experience (or any experience) would have been brilliant.

The thing I find with jobs is the most qualified doesn’t always get it. I remember once getting a job and the recruiter being surprised when she told me because there had been applicants with more experience than me. I’ve also had the opposite happen, the recruiter told me I performed the best in the tests but they still didn’t think I was suitable so they were readvertising. I’ve also witnessed a colleague acting in a supervisor role when none where available, but be denied the permanent post when it came up. That happened a few times before she had enough and quit.

All that is just a long way of saying a job ad outlines skills they want the applicant to have. Recruiters know it’s unlikely that someone will tick all the boxes, and even if they do, they still might not get the job. Once it gets to interview stage, they’ll chose the person they get on with the best.

With this post being voluntary, it’s even less likely they’ll find the perfect candidate. If it was something I wanted, I would apply anyway though.

Yanbu

Imagine if you could only be a midwife after giving birth. Or, a cardiologist only after you've experienced a heart attack.

Just accept that some things aren't for some people. That's life.

@1FootInTheRave
Unfair comparison.
Professionally, where she works, OP can give professional advice irrespectively of her life experiences.
This organisation, however, provides peer support and promotes breastfeeding. This requirement of being able to relate to personal experiences of breastfeeding mothers is important and rightly so. If I purely need advice from a pharmacist or a GP, I’ll go straight to them. From this kind of organisation I’d expect more. That’s exactly what they are asking candidates.

My health visitor was useless for BF advice after about 4 months because I was the only client she had still breastfeeding. All the other mums had switched to formula by then. Every time I had a BF questions she consulted google for the answer - because she hadn't breastfed and she wasn't used to dealing with breastfeeding women after the newborn stage. A person with lived experience (or any experience) would have been brilliant.

It may have had a positive impact, but to say it would have made them ‘brilliant’ is a bit of a stretch in my opinion.
I would think a lot of non-medical baby related advice from people who haven’t had babies isn’t generally great. But advice from those who have had babies isn’t always much better either. I’m just going by all the useless advice I got from both child free and ‘experienced’ parents on how to get my baby to nap and sleep.
Advice from people with lived experience can be biased. And babies are all so different. And breastfeeding experience also vary so greatly. One person’s personal experience won’t be much good to you if their experience is completely different to what you’re going through.
You see this on MN all the time! Half the time the OP’s experience and circumstances are are completely ignored, posters just can’t wait to rush in, give their solutions based on only their own experience satisfied that’s the simple answer and your welcome.

Derailing slightly but I think in many cases women expect a magic bullet in terms of breastfeeding advice. The fact is that it isn’t an exact science, and in many cases it doesn’t work out and all the advice in the world wouldn’t change that. It’s frustrating but I think women need to accept the limitations of medical staff, they’re not miracle workers.