To need to speak to my MIL about this?

[MolliciousIntent]

Want to preface this with saying that I love my MIL, she's a kind and caring woman and an excellent grandmother. But she's incredibly sensitive and very difficult to talk to about anything that could be interpreted as criticism.

Our nearly 3yr DD is in a particularly wilful phase at the moment, there is a lot of shouting "NO" very loudly, and she is somehow simultaneously incredibly clingy to me while also wanting anyone and everyone else. Think clinging to her friends mum's at playdates and losing her shit if I come near her, but also losing her shit if I leave the room. Honestly, it's been pretty upsetting, but I've been trying incredibly hard to keep it all bright and breezy and keep my feelings about it to myself. DD is also very sensitive and gets very upset if she thinks she's done something wrong, so while I try to correct the yelling and hitting, I don't bring my emotions into it, because when I do DD gets really upset and feels whatever toddler version of guilt and shame, and it lasts for hours and I really, really do not want that for her.

Enter MIL. We're there for a few days. DD's behaviour has actually been really good, but she is all about Nana all the time and it's been quite hard for me to basically be told to get fucked by my toddler 24/7. But hey, that's life.

The issue is, every time DD does this, Nana tells her that she's upset mummy and hurt mummy's feelings, that mummy is sad now, and that she has to go and tell me that she's sorry. DD then feels really bad and withdraws and I honestly can't stand it. If she shouts at me and hits me, she gets told of for doing that. But I'm not comfortable with telling her off for wanting Nana to do her hair instead of mummy. Yes it hurts my feelings, but that's a me problem! I want her to feel comfortable expressing her preferences and boundaries, I want her to learn to do it politely and to understand that sometimes needs must, but I don't want her to feel bad for doing it!

MIL has a habit of turning everything into a guilt trip, with everyone, but I can see how much it upsets DD and I really don't know how to phrase it so that she stops. Nor does DH.

Why should she be made to feel bad every time she doesn't want to do what someone else has chosen for her? Surely she is being offered a choice to do drawing or not? I very rarely told my children my feelings were hurt I would more likely phrase it as "everyone has their own preferences but speaking like that to people could hurt their feelings. How would you feel if someone said that to you?". In the cases you've described it comes across very much as emotional blackmail to me.

"Don't say that, Nanny, you'll make DD sad!"
"I'm a big girl, Nanny, I'd rather DD was having a good time with you!"
"Don't say that, Nanny, you'll make DD feel guilty! She's allowed to want to sit by you!"

Just keep parroting it back at her. There's no need to address it directly m she'll get the idea pretty fast!

Sounds like mil is trying to smooth things with you, and doesn’t want to upset though dd going through a difficult stage. I be she feels a bit uncomfortable to the situation.

it’s up to you and dh really to reassure mil that your not offended and you are happy for mil and dd to interact without mil needing to tell dd off.

It's all very well saying that this small child should be told when she's hurting someone's feelings, but that's NOT what's happening. The child is being told by OP's MIL that she's hurting OP's feelings. If OP wants the child to know her feelings are hurt (and fwiw, I think OP's doing the right thing by letting the child play with her grandmother and build a relationship there), then it is for OP to tell her own child that. OP can perfectly adequately own and deal with her own feelings.
If the child is hurting MIL's feelings, then of course MIL should be allowed to correct that in an age-appropriate and balanced way. But MIL should not be using OP to guilt-trip the child, when OP's feelings are for OP to deal with.

OP is not dealing with feelings very well at all.

DD is also very sensitive and gets very upset if she thinks she's done something wrong, so while I try to correct the yelling and hitting, I don't bring my emotions into it, because when I do DD gets really upset and feels whatever toddler version of guilt and shame, and it lasts for hours and I really, really do not want that for her

The child needs to know hitting HURTS Mummy. Mummy does not like it when you tell at me like that.

All MIL is trying to do is make the child understand that her actions have consequences for another person. She needs to be TOLD she has done something wrong. How else is she going to learn.

Toddler shame that last hours and hours? She has the OP wrapped around her little finger so it ends up the child is the one punishing the Mother. Ridiculous behaviour.

My DM did something similar with my toddler DD. She asked for a kiss, DD didn't want to be kissed/or to kiss and DM then pretended to cry. It was an obvious emotional blackmail designed to make DD feel guilty and give her a kiss.

I told her to stop conditioning DD to permit touching/kissing when she doesn't want to and asked how would she (DM) feel if DD felt obliged in the future to allow anyone to kiss/touch her or have sex with her because otherwise they'll 'feel bad'?"

If I were you, I'd probably say something along the lines of: "I know you mean well and you're concerned how DD's rejection is affecting me, but it is important for her to know she should make her own decisions about who touches her, when and how... and she'll learn the best if we don't confuse it with exceptions, no matter how small or insignificant they seem to us."

Jesus this is completely different.

@shazzybazzy34 I really don't think it is that different. Both things rely upon provoking guilt to push a child to do something they don't want to do. Both things are provoking guilt over something that is about child's preference and not child acting out or behaving rudely. My example is definitely more 'out there' but essentially - emotional mechanism is exactly the same.

A child should NEVER be told they have to hug someone, ever. I agree totally with you on that and your MIL pretending to cry is awful but in this case where is child is yelling and hitting and refusing to let her Mother even do her hair I can see where the MIL is coming from. This is not a forced hug or forced touching it is a child pushing boundaries and not learning about other people's feelings.

Shazzy - maybe I misread - but my understanding is that those are two different issues. One issue is OP's DD acting out on occasions, and another is her refusing OP and insisting 'Nana' does her hair. I understood that Nana proceeded to tell the little girl that her rejection (to do her hair) is making OP feel bad.

If I misunderstood and Nana was telling her that she shouldn't hit OP - then you're absolutely right - those are two completely different things.

I think it is a mixture to be honest but "losing her shit if I come near her, but also losing her shit if I leave the room" must be an absolute nightmare. I also think if she is "stuck to GM", it must be hard for the MIL too. Seems like the child completely rules the roost and is not told by her mother that she has either hurt her feelings by yelling at her or hurt her body by hitting her because if she does the child gets upset and sulks for hours. The child learns nothing about the feelings of others only that her own feelings are more important. She doesn't learn empathy.

Your DD needs some boundaries setting down now, OP. She needs to learn clearly that her actions have consequences and that refusing to let her mum look after her and deciding she’d prefer somewhere is hurtful. An 18 month old is a baby but a 3 year old us one year away from school. She will need to know that when teacher gives instructions she has to follow them.
3 years old is not too young to learn that if mum says she’s doing your hair, she’s doing your hair. End of.

I’m another one that suspects Nanny might be getting tired of this and needs a break. She might not be handling it the best way but when she says ‘Mummy will be upset if …’ she might actually be meaning ‘please go to Mummy now and give me a break’.

Where is your DH in all this? Why is he not speaking to his mother?

I don't like this response at all. In general I really dislike these responses offered because they to a man treat the MIL like a baby who hasn't raised children of her own. I agree your daughter doesn't need to apologise for everything, there shouldn't be so many examples of this - at what point are you going to tell her that actually she doesn't have a choice in this and needs to do as she's told?

He has, see OP's post @ 10:59. OP doesn't like her daughter's behaviour but is prepared to suck it up, but when her MIL attempts to shore that up, she doesn't like it. I don't think MIL can do right here tbh.

Honestly I agree with you about the emotional blackmail from your mil (your daughter really isn’t old enough to consider other people’s feelings in that way) but I wouldn’t tolerate your DD’s behaviour either. You ask her to come and sit for you to do her hair and if she refuses/whines/insists Nanny will do it then you discipline her for disobedience (mine would have been on the “thinking step”). I certainly wouldn’t expect Nanny to then do her hair. It’s bugger all to do with hurting your feelings, which in the context of who she wants to do her hair is a fairly nebulous concept for a toddler, and everything to do with DD learning to do as she is told and that actually life isn’t all about her whims and preferences. If she kicks off then she kicks off, it’s what two year olds do. I suspect if Nanny saw you actually acting on your daughter’s behaviour she’d back off.

Having had a mother who was a master of emotional blackmail I agree with this. Guilt tripping a child into doing some activity she doesn’t want to do because that “hurts nana’s feelings” is really wrong. It’s bullshit too, what kind of person is hurt by a toddler not wanting to do some art/craft thing? You’d just think ok, let’s do something else. Even worse if she does it about food - emotionally blackmailing someone into eating more than they want to is awful. My mother did this and I’ve had lifelong problems around food and my weight.

DDs behaviour is probably a phase, and she needs to learn that you’re in charge not her, but the whole “mustn’t hurt mummy’s feelings” thing isn’t the right way. No need to bring feelings into it at all, especially if it’s not true. Better to be straightforward:

You: I’m going to brush your hair
DD: TANTRUUUMM. I want Nana to do it.
You: No, I’m going to brush your hair.
MIL: That’s right, Mummy is going to brush your hair.

Repeat until she realises (a) you are indeed going to brush her hair and (b) you and MIL are on the same side.

I think there's a few issues at play here that are getting muddled up.

Firstly, if DD is yelling and hitting then she needs to learn that this isn't how to communicate, in a way that is appropriate for her age. Now I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on this, but if she is being physical (hitting) then it would be fair to say that she is hurting you.

Secondly, it sounds like MIL means well but I don't think 'you've hurt mummy's feelings/made mummy feel sad' is appropriate in any of the scenarios you have provided, and I can see how this could be confusing and upsetting for DD. MIL probably thinks she's helping, especially if you've spoken with her about the issues you're having, but I would maybe just say to MIL that DD doesn't understand what she means and to make some alternative suggestions.

I also agree with other posters that maybe MIL is saying this when she needs a break from DD (she does sound a handful, which is pretty normal for a 3yo!).

Do Health Visitors still exist?

It might be worth speaking to yours, and asking about your child’s development. The clinginess and anger sound extreme for a three year old. You could also ask them for advice on how to manage her behaviour

I get why you think your MIL is in the wrong - but maybe this is just highlighting that there’s an underlying issue that needs addressed

I would imagine she is trying really hard not to overstep. She doesn't want to be seen to be encouraging your daughter's 'rejection' of you.

I would nicely spell it out that you are really happy about their bond.

Oh please don't worry MIL it's lovey she wants you to do it.

Or preempt it with your DD: 'why don't you ask Nanny to do your hair?'

Just make it really clear you are happy for her to want nanny, every time if necessary.