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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think i should be losing weight even when drinking most evenings?

71 replies

Martha1000 · 14/08/2022 18:16

I’m having quite a stressful time at the minute and am probably drinking more than I should be which I’m working on but I can’t help feeling I should still be losing weight
I’m being very healthy and always eating no more than 1500 calories a day
I’m working out a minimum of 3 times a week at high intensity classes plus at least an hours walking on the other days
I probably drink 2 glasses of wine every night apart from maybe 2 so even if that’s 300 calories that’s only an additional 1500 per week which is still way under with what I’m eating plus all the training.
AIBU to expect to lose weight without giving up wine completely!?

OP posts:
SunnyD44 · 15/08/2022 00:27

1500 + 300 = 1800

The recommend calories for average women to maintain their weight is 2000.

So if you are genuinely having 1800 then that’s not much off the 2000 and so you’ll be loosing weight at a much slower pace and it probably won’t be noticeable on the scales for a while.

Have you already lost weight and now you’re stalling as that’s quite common?

Alcohol can mess up your sleep pattern, dehydrate you etc which can affect your weight so I would try lower calorie drinks.

If your weight still isn’t budging then I’d not drink for a couple of weeks and see if that helps.

Eeksteek · 15/08/2022 01:25

SofiaSoFar · 14/08/2022 20:31

And that's all that matters at the end of the day.

If you need to 1,800 calories to maintain your weight, it doesn't matter if you consume that 1,800 calories entirely in chocolate, crisps and full sugar coke, or if you only eat lean chicken and vegetables and drink only water.

You won't gain or lose a single pound.

Since I’ve been interested in weight loss the last few years, I’ve been reading scientific papers and information from doctors researching in the field to try and understand the developing science of obesity. I haven’t read a single study that supports this theory.

They all (in various ways) lean towards the idea that weight gain (or loss) is tightly controlled by a (so far) poorly understood and highly complex hormone system, just the way all our other important systems are, and that hormones influence what we choose to eat (which makes sense to anyone who knows anything about physiology). In varying degrees they support:

  1. Not eating all the time. The time between your first and last meal should be less than the time between your last and first meals. Eating fewer meals and no snacks. Consider some fasting, but not a consistently low calorie diet. They merely slow your metabolism to adapt to a low calorie diet while maintaining your current weight and many people’s never recover. Losses are often made, but vanishingly rarely maintained.

  2. Eating food, not edible food-like substances. Processed food, ultra processed food with many additives, snack foods, foods with added sugars, food with fibre removed, easy, soft non-foods. Even basic foodstuffs like bread are now seriously highly-processed and full of additives. It’s not clear whether it’s the processing, the marketing, the accessibility, the additives, or the deficits of processed food that’s the main culprit, but there’s nothing helpful about them. (My money is on the additives, but they’ll all play some part)

  3. This goes absolutely double for drinks. Processed drinks are the ultimate processed food - I mean, they aren’t even solid! What we need from drinks is water. Not sugar, fizz, extracts and flavourings. I’m sorry to say that alcohol is probably an issue (I know very little about it specifically, I don’t drink much, so I assume it’s not really an issue for me personally. But it’s a sugar filled drink with additives and flavourings that extends your ‘eating’ window. It’s not going to help even without the ethanol)

  4. Influence of general health - getting enough sleep, reducing stress, moving slowly most of the time with very short bursts of intense exercise, spending time in nature, experiencing temperature variation, getting natural light, being generally content and fulfilled. Staying hydrated.

  5. (and this will be news to absolutely no one!) eat whole foods, prepared in kitchens not laboratories, with lots of whole fruits, vegetables and simple protein and fat and almost no sugar. I mean, who doesn’t know that? And yet we all try to find ways make the other stuff work. I don’t think it does. I think it you want to maintain a healthy weight, you have to eat food cooked by humans in kitchens, not processed by machines in laboratories and factories. And for most of us, that means cooking from scratch ourselves (as restaurants and takeaways use lots of processed ingredients and personal chefs are expensive!).

  6. TDEE is a completely mythical thing. Energy expenditure at any given moment varies by A LOT, all the time. Including by calories in. How much energy you expend on basic bodily functions (not exercise) is dependent in quite a big way on how many calories you consume. It also CANNOT be calculated, even for a moment, by a simple sec/body weight/multiple choice ‘activity level’ option. It would be like saying the amount of of rainfall on any given day can be calculated by what month it is. It’s hardly even a rough correlation in my opinion.

I’m not saying calories don’t matter. But what they are, when you eat them, what what else is added to (or removed from) them and what else yoir body is doing matters more, AND ALSO influences how much we eat far more than we have realised up to now. Kevin Hall’s experiment blew my mind. (He matched the nutrients in a processed food diet, with a minimally processed diet. People enjoyed it less, but are more of it. 500 calories per day more, and put on a kilo in a fortnight. Which they lost on the minimally processed diet, even though they didn’t know how much they weighed or how much they were eating and the diets were exactly the same, nutritionally)

mackthepony · 15/08/2022 01:26

How old are you?

figtrees · 15/08/2022 02:15

You might only be burning that many calories.
2000 is a lot, most women gain if they eat that many as that figure is an estimate and an out dated one from an era where women did more manual labour and people in general walked more. Active people burn more calories but doing a couple of hours a week isn't enough to make a dent, it's the bare minimum.

I am 5ft9 and I stall at 1400, so that's how many I burn a day just pottering about. I don't drink alcohol and I don't eat chocolate or cake. I only drink water, black coffee without sugar and green tea without sugar etc.

You esdentially you just need to get rid of something if you aren't losing weight. If you really must keep the wine, which probably should be first to go, you could skip breakfast and try having only things like non creamy soups for lunch and salads, then making sure your evening meal is much smaller portion than before, or use very low calorie food to fill your plate such as cauliflower rice or zucchini noodles. Lean protein, egg white omelette etc.

Try to look at calories over the week so if you overdo it one day it's easier to stay om the horse as you know thst you will be under over the week.

Carpy88999 · 15/08/2022 06:13

Sugarpiehoney · 14/08/2022 23:21

Can you explain the science behind this please?

Glycogen is the bodies first energy reserve. Its not really important as long as you're in a calorie deficit you will lose weight regardless of where those calories come from.

sarahc336 · 15/08/2022 06:35

Calories from alcohol are very easy to store as fat as theyre a calories purely based from sugar, no fibre etc. so even though your counting the calories you will be storing the alcohol, quite often around the belly area. Maybe just try cut it out once or twice a week and you may just notice a difference from that small change op xx

pd339 · 15/08/2022 07:22

I'll bet a million dollars you aren't counting your calories accurately. Its always that.

neshtastic · 15/08/2022 07:42

The recommend calories for average women to maintain their weight is 2000.

This is out of date. This was recommended in the 50s when our lifestyles were completely different to today.

Baconking · 15/08/2022 07:47

Are you eating 1500 cals per day plus wine calories or is the wine included in the 1500?

Do you measure your wine?

We don't know your height or weight so it's hard to judge if you are over or under calories but I would guess you actually aren't measuring correctly and having more than 1500 a day or 1500 is above your TDEE

Adversity · 15/08/2022 08:12

Found this interesting article talking about sugar in wine

theconversation.com/two-glasses-of-wine-might-add-more-sugar-to-your-diet-than-eating-a-doughnut-177301

Plus calorie counting is difficult the only true way is to weigh. I saw a picture of bowls of food and the issue with assessing by eye. The difference in amount was minuscule looking but the calories weren’t.

knackeredagain · 15/08/2022 08:17

I suspect you are underestimating the calories you are consuming and overestimating the calories you burn at the gym.
Do you track your food/drink on MFP or similar? Weigh and measure portion sizes? And track your exercise with a watch? What’s your non exercise expenditure like (ie daily steps)? If you are pretty sedentary apart from your workouts it will slow things down a lot.
Also, does your wine give you the munchies?

The only way is to be really honest with yourself. Try a couple of weeks of really focusing on getting your calories in/out accurate and see where you are with it.

ZenNudist · 15/08/2022 08:21

I cut out booze completely but didn't lose weight despite exercise. There's no easy way but a calorie controlled diet. Wine isn't going to be possible because you won't be in deficit.

KvotheTheBloodless · 15/08/2022 08:21

1800 kcal per day (including the wine) is equivalent to most moderately active women's calorie requirements for the day, no wonder you're not losing (unless you're very heavy indeed, in which case I'm stumped!).

orion678 · 15/08/2022 08:34

I wouldn't put it just down to the wine - I lost 1.5 stone earlier this year without cutting out alcohol - but it's contributing to your overall calorie budget and you're likely not in deficit and that's why you're not losing weight.

Sugarpiehoney · 15/08/2022 10:20

VerinMathwin · 15/08/2022 00:14

Calories in the evening are worse for losing weight than those earlier in the day. You need to start drinking at lunchtime instead.

This is ridiculous. None of this makes sense

’calories in the evening are worse for losing weight’ - how can you even say that with zero evidence to back it up? 😂 a calorie is a calorie, it’s just energy that your body uses in one of many ways or stores to be used later. Calories aren’t for losing weight full stop. This is just rubbish haha

Sugarpiehoney · 15/08/2022 10:29

Oh wait was it a joke about drinking earlier in the day/more 😂 if so I do apologise! This thread has made me slightly irked as there’s sooo much bad advice and misinformation so I was triggered!

SofiaSoFar · 15/08/2022 17:11

@Eeksteek

If anyone is telling you that your metabolism will materially change due to eating at certain times, etc., they're selling you snake oil.

Everything in your list is still related to calories in v calories out.

16:8 is exactly about that - it's 16 hours where you're not consuming calories and most people don't eat significantly more during the other 8 hours to compensate, ergo, fewer calories consumed than otherwise.

Likewise with natural/non-processed foods: they're far less calorie dense and more filling/fibrous so again you end up eating fewer calories.

If metabolism could really slow down to match calorie intake no one would be dying of starvation.

Eeksteek · 15/08/2022 20:33

@SofiaSoFar

The things you have said are common misunderstandings about metabolism and biology (I have a biology degree and a physio degree, so I have a lot of contextual knowledge and the ability to critique a source. I only peruse modern, reputable, peer-reviews sources by medical professionals. It’s not snake oil. It’s science. You are free to disagree, but I ask for your sources)

Of course metabolism can slow down (and speed up) in response to hormonal cues. Like every other biological system. We can reproduce it with drugs. And of course it can stop and you die of starvation. But its not one or the other. It’s very, very dynamic. You don’t just carry on using the same amount of calories until you drop dead. You starve slowly, conserving what you can for as long as you can. People on diets feel cold and show a measurable change in body temperature. That’s a metabolic slowdown, but it doesn’t kill you instantly. And your body makes other changes. It’s changes your physiology to motivate you to seek food. Initially, it’s thought to increase metabolism while you still have reserves to enable you to seek food. If you continue to not eat, or eat with a moderate calorie reduction (like most diets), then it will slow down to try and wait for better times.

Your body is not an engine. It doesn’t have a fixed output, and its output is not only (or even mostly) exercise. If you eat 2000 calories a day and use a few hundred moving around, what happens to all the others? How does your body choose whether to repair a cut, maintain your body temperature or go for a hike? How does it set body temperature anyway? Every time you eat anything, your body ‘decides’ what to do with that energy. How do you suppose it does that? If you drink a lot of water, you don’t just carry around with you until you need it, do you? No, you have a delicate balance of hormones that detect how hydrated you are and increase urine output to maintain your water balance. But if you eat too much salt, your body will drive you to drink more, because it needs water to excrete the salt. So you can choose whether or not drink, but thirst is driven by hormones. And so is appetite and body weight. It’s just a lot more complex, because there are multiple substances is involved, and harder to study because metabolism is technically complex to measure.

Your specific points:

16:8 (I didn’t actually mention this, but anyway) does not work by calorie restriction. One of the hormones in your body drives fat storage. Insulin is well known for it, and supplementing people with it makes them fat. However, you cannot burn fat, and store fat at the same time. You just can’t. They are controlled by hormones that inhibit each other. Insulin is triggered by eating food. Sugar most of all, but all foods increase it. So if you spend more time in the ‘eating than not eating it wont fall. Crucially, when it does fall, it doesn’t have time to fall to zero between your tv snacks and your breakfast, whatever they are. Each day, it creeps higher and higher. Something like 16:8 will lower the baseline and allow you to spend more time in a fat burning metabolism than a fat storing one. Longer fasts even more so. That’s why they are now using fasts to reverse diabetes. For the record, I dont think 16:8 I a great weight loss method, although I suspect it can help. I also suspect when you eat influences what you eat. People eat crap in the evening, so reducing evening snacking changes what you eat, as well as when.

Dr Kevin Hall’s experiment matched the nutritional content of the processed/minimally processed diets, including fibre. However, it seems you are under the impression that feeling ‘full’ is a physical response to volume in your stomach. It’s not. Both hunger and fullness are manufactured by hormones, they aren’t feelings generated by pressure. Processed foods do not produce these feelings of fullness with the same calorie intake as minimally processed foods AND those extra calories translate directly into weight gain, even when nutritionally identical. The current theory seems to be that digestion starts as soon as you anticipate a nutrient and continues until you receive it. If your brain is expecting a whole lot of protein from the beef-extract in the crisps you are eating, it doesn’t cue you to stop eating until figures out it not getting it. That takes time, so you keep eating them.

Professor Rachel Batterham’s work showing how hormones are acting in people living with obesity is fascinating. There are genes which pre-dispose people to eat more, enabling UCL to predict who gastric surgery will work for. There are some gastric surgeries which affect hormonal control of appetite and some which do not. Guess which one works best? They test levels of gut hormones post surgery and it correlates with the success of the patients weight loss. Not their mental strength, their gut hormones (I’m still getting my head around, its pretty new. They have tried supplementing people with satiety hormones, but it didn’t work. It seems that, like every other biological system, its the dynamic relationship between a number of different hormones that matters, so just pumping in one is very crude and doesn’t work. There’s a new one on the market that has better results, apparently though. I haven’t had a good look at it yet). Just as your water balance is controlled by hormones, even though its up to you whether you drink or not, your weight and appetite are tightly controlled by gut hormones, regardless of how disciplined you are. But modern living is disrupting them massively. Because of what food we eat, what not-food we eat, when we eat, how often we eat, and what else is going on in our bodies.

For every problem there is a solution that easy, simple and wrong - I’m sure you’ve come across this in your field - CICO is the weight one. It’s so, so, so much more complex. We are unforgivably failing obese and overweight people by giving them poor, and very unscientific, information and very little help and blaming them when they don’t lose weight. I think we will look back at the ‘eat less, move more’ advice with horror in twenty years, the way we look back at tobacco companies telling people with colds to smoke.

Baystard · 15/08/2022 20:39

Neither alcohol or stress (cortisol) are good for your metabolism, both interfere with your body's ability to burn fat.

waltershite22 · 15/08/2022 20:54

I absolutely need to stay under 1200 calories a day to lose weight.

bridgetreilly · 15/08/2022 21:09

I would not expect to lose weight on that, no.

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