Stonewall’s advice for FF couples wanting to be parents more than a decade old

[Sgoat]

AIBU to think the UK’s main LGBT charity should have spent a little bit of time in the last decade updating its advice on the laws, costs and options for lesbian, gay and bi people who want to become parents?

I am posting because several years ago my wife and I started looking into options for us as an FF couple, and understandably went to Stonewall’s website to see if they’d produced any sort of guide or info. They had, but it had last been updated in 2009, and when we resorted to doing our own research we worked out that the law / NHS guidance had changed at least twice since then. The guidance for men hadn’t been updated since 2015.

We ended up doing our own research and it turns out that, working out how you can have a kid: what the costs are (astronomical unless you go down a v unsafe route), what you have to do to both be the legal parents, what the NHS will help you with (varies from place to place), how you can find sperm or eggs etc. is complicated, time consuming and requires you to be able to understand legalease and find and understand random things like NHS clinical commissioning guidance. We encountered plenty of other couples on our journey who didn’t have the time of ability to do this research and we’re completely clueless and as a consequence either had overly optimistic expectations or we’re paying loads to private clinics for things they could get on the NHS like blood tests. Including one really heartbreaking conversation with a black FF couple who’d assumed they’d be able to access reciprocal IVF and that getting hold of black donor sperm would be easy (it’s super hard).

An up to date guide would be so helpful and save a lot of bother, cost and broken expectations. But Stonewall seem to have done no work on this issue for years, despite it surely being an issue of huge interest to a big segment of the people they represent.

The reason I’m posting now is because the government has recently changed the law. It used to be that same sex female couples have to self fund IUI for six cycles in a recognised private clinic (if you factor in the cost of sperm this will cost you about £2k per cycle) before being able to access one cycle of IVF. Now the NHS will fund the cost of the IUI so that same sex couples that want a kid only have to find the money for sperm (still about £4-6k for six goes) before getting any support. Not wanting to start a conversation about how NHS resources should be allocated, just one about whether people who face big hurdles to having kids should at least have been given advice that helps them understand the reality of their situation by the charity that is supposed to act for them.

I optimistically checked Stonewall’s advice pages to see if they’d been updated - no.

Now I should say for the record that I think it’s great that Stonewall do have up to date advice for trans people wanting to get pregnant. Trans people do face struggles getting bespoke accurate medical advice. But when you look at the relative numbers of people who would be helped by up to date advice, surely they should also have spent at least a little bit of time helping lesbian, gay and bi women and men understand their situation too?!?

YANBU at all OP. Whilst I am a trans ally, I feel sorry for the L, G, and B people who aren't getting the support they need because they are lumped under the same umbrella as T people who need very different advice and support.

This is the page btw

Parenting rights

I don’t think Stonewall has had much interest in anything apart from transwomen for a long time.

Stonewall have forgotten their core demographic, I'm sorry.

I wish you all the best with your journey.

Maybe mumsnet could step in and fill the gap...

Thanks, we’ve got two lovely kids now, and had the time and educational backgrounds (science / policy) to do our own research, so we’re alright.

It’s the people that don’t that I feel for.

This 100%

LGBA have stepped in to fill the gap. Although they're being taken to court of course by those who don't think the gap exists.

Yep & they have a huge amount of money so it's not about scarce resource either

As you have done the research could you pen a basic article and offer it to MN? Mentioning stuff like the difference in availability of legit donor sperm from ethnic minorities. As you are writing from your experience MN shouldn't be sued by the offended.

They haven’t actually, there is nothing on their website about parenting rights or having kids. The vast majority of their content is very politically reactive and focused on trans / sex / LGB or LGBT issues.

If they want to represent / advocate for LGB people they need to also represent the silent majority whose lives and sexuality are not solely expressed through the prism of the hot political issues of the day and need guidance on everyday things things like medical advice, parenting rights, marriage laws and travel. TBH I expect plenty of trans people feel the same and would welcome more practical guidance and support on healthcare and the laws that affect them and less on semantics and gender theories

Typo should have said “focused on trans / sex / LGB vs LGBT issues

What’s FF?

@Sgoat

Now I should say for the record that I think it’s great that Stonewall do have up to date advice for trans people wanting to get pregnant

Really? I find it risible. The idea that they will pander to someone so dysphoric about their female body that they want to live as a man yet who will do the most female thing possible and give birth just shows how messed up their priorities have become.

Yup this, no argument with Trans people getting specific advice and support but it shouldn’t be an either or where LGB people are being underrepresented.

Trans issues are real and serious, but pretending they are always the same as LGB issues and that advocating for one is advocating for all is a bit like saying, well disabled people and black people both experience similar kinds of discrimination, let’s set up one lobby group to provide both groups with the same advice and support

I suppose that whatever your thoughts are on trans men being trans and then having babies, there will be some (albeit not many) who are considering doing it, so better that they are properly informed than not.

My problem is that the effort that’s gone into providing that information and support is seemingly coming at the expense of other groups, that realistically need the information more because there are more of them.

@Rainallnight female female.

Yes, that was really supposed to be my (poorly put) point, the idea that they would take the time to write a guide for the one person per decade who’s trans but wants a baby while ignoring the vastly larger group of lesbians who do.

I dunno. If the stats about rising numbers of girls being referred do result in more trans men, there might be quite a few people in need of this advice in the future.

I guess my larger point is, help both groups but if you absolutely must prioritise, perhaps update your guidance for the bigger group first instead of leaving them in an information void for ten years

This.

Once equal marriage was achieved they kind of lost interest in gay and lesbian rights. Especially lesbian rights and lives.

The nhs favours same sex fertile couples over infertile heterosexual couples. Heterosexual couples do not qualify for ivf after just six months. And as you say the six month rule no longer applies. M nobody should be accessing free ivf simply because of their sexual preferences , only for infertility.

@LilacPoppy you've got the wrong end of the stick. Same sex FF couples used to have to self fund six rounds of IUI (the IUI costs between £800 and £1200 per cycle, the sperm costs about the same) through a clinic before qualifying for one round of NHS funded IVF.

Now once the new law gets implemented they will get six cycles of IUI on the NHS (they still have to pay for the sperm inc shipping and storage which for six rounds could cost you £6-£8k), before qualifying for one round of IVF. Plenty of same sex FF couples still won’t be able to take this route because they won’t be able to afford to buy six vials of sperm plus costs and will instead ask a friend, go through a website or go straight to private IVF which has a higher success rate so overall a round or two of IVF would be cheaper as you’d also need less sperm and lower quality sperm which is cheaper.

Straight couples have to try “naturally” for two years OR self fund six rounds of IUI at a clinic before accessing the NHS IVF.

The reason why six months of IUI is being treated as equivalent to two years of trying naturally is because medically if you don’t have fertility problems, you should have conceived after six rounds of IUI or two years of trying naturally. IUI is more successful per go than straight sex, hence the time differences. So if you’ve had six rounds of unsuccessful IUI you do have fertility problems.

"M nobody should be accessing free ivf simply because of their sexual preferences , only for infertility."
why?

There are also hundreds of examples of how in Britain the government gives some groups of people extra support or resources because they as a group in general face inherent challenges or need extra support.

e.g. pensioners and some disabled people get bus passes (regardless of whether they could afford to pay for the bus or not) because we as a society recognise that in general they face more challenges to getting about that most other people don’t. People who can’t afford legal representation get legal aid (though there’s precious little of it about). Pregnant women get free prescriptions etc. Young people get discounted rail travel even though some of them are minted.

Lot of examples of how as a society we give groups that generally need a bit more support because of challenges they can’t help more resources or extra support.

Thought stonewall didn't let female mean child bearing human any more