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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder why we haven't had protests about the energy bills rising?

174 replies

ChubbyCaterpillar · 10/08/2022 20:52

Where's the uproar?
I can't understand how these energy companies are allowed to make the profits they do and continue to increase their costs.
Even if the government do step in it seems like they will only support people already on the breadline. Rather than put proper caps on the bills so it helps everyone.
Do you think protests will happen? Why haven't they already?

OP posts:
ImWell · 11/08/2022 11:12

Getoff · 11/08/2022 10:16

Your suggestion would cost many billions, more than what it has cost France.

Explain why? Cost who? There would be some redistribution from better of to worse off people, and no net cost to the government.

No thanks. We already have enough of that already.

Lunar270 · 11/08/2022 11:16

Good post @Dissimilitude and I agree about the incentive to reduce consumption. Never a bad thing.

However, I find the issue always tends to be a reactive approach that no government has been able to get on top of. It's all good encouraging lower consumption but the alternatives are short in supply.

Everything seems to be shifting to electricity like cars and heat pump central heating. I'm on board with that and have an EV. But we're really slow with the push to solar/battery, renewables and nuclear etc etc.

We absolutely need to eliminate fossil fuel use but the alternatives are painfully slow and too slow IMO. The current crisis has just highlighted how slow and finely balanced the situation is.

Lunar270 · 11/08/2022 11:19

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PEDRO12 · 11/08/2022 11:21

ImWell · 11/08/2022 11:11

About £40 per household then?

Its actually very worrying given we should be reaching peak credit at this time of the summer. The fact the country is already running a net debt in a hot summer bodes very poorly for when prices increases 80-100% and the need to start using gas begins.

That will probably be north of 10 billion come the end of the winter, maybe significantly so.

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 11:32

ImWell · 11/08/2022 11:11

About £40 per household then?

No, the average debt is £206 as it’s 6 million households in debt.
www.lbc.co.uk/news/brits-energy-debt-martin-lewis-slams-zombie-government/

It’s important to note that total debt was £1bn in April, and so has increased quite steeply by 33% to the record high £1.3bn in 90 days….which should not be happening in summer as the usual trend is the debt goes down over the warmer months.

LovinglifeAF · 11/08/2022 11:33

It’s the British isn’t it, they moan lots but never actually do anything 🤷🏼‍♀️

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 11:33

PEDRO12 · 11/08/2022 11:21

Its actually very worrying given we should be reaching peak credit at this time of the summer. The fact the country is already running a net debt in a hot summer bodes very poorly for when prices increases 80-100% and the need to start using gas begins.

That will probably be north of 10 billion come the end of the winter, maybe significantly so.

Yes, and more energy companies will collapse at the rate things are going.

BigWoollyJumpers · 11/08/2022 11:33

Getoff · 11/08/2022 09:15

Because what France is doing is stupid, even given they get energy from nuclear rather than gas.

If the government wanted to solve the problem purely by manipulating energy prices, they should actually raise prices, by putting an extra tax on consumption, so prices go up even more than they underlying rates. Then they should use the extra money to pay a flat subsidy to household on Universal Credit. The increased prices would hit the rich, who use more energy, harder, and would force everyone to try even harder to economise, putting some downward pressure on demand and therefore prices. The poor would be helped, and the total amount paid for energy would be marginally lower than it would have been, and government finances would not be impacted.

(If helping only people on universal credit is deemed too narrow, they should expand the definition of who is eligible for that.)

The lone voice of sanity amongst all the crap.

Btw, EDF is in the process of suing the French government for loss of earnings due to the price cap, and the loss of value to shareholders for the low price per share for nationalisation. Be interesting to see the outcome of that.

LovinglifeAF · 11/08/2022 11:38

I do think the government need to do more though. If they can pay the wages of millions of people to sit on their arses for up to a year and a half, they can step up now.

BigWoollyJumpers · 11/08/2022 11:38

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 11:33

Yes, and more energy companies will collapse at the rate things are going.

Also an interesting point. I wonder whether people like me, who have just got a £1k refund from Bulb, were artificially propping up the credit balances. I am still £350 in credit, but they had been massively overestimating usage, and over charging my DD all year. The computer alway said "NO", when I tried to manually change it, and finally got through to a person, although they had to do it in three lots, because I couldn't have more that my monthly dd back at any one time. What a stupid system. Anyway, I don't mind a small amount of credit, but £1.5k was rather excessive!

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 11:54

@Getoff
If the government wanted to solve the problem purely by manipulating energy prices, they should actually raise prices, by putting an extra tax on consumption, so prices go up even more than they underlying rates. Then they should use the extra money to pay a flat subsidy to household on Universal Credit. The increased prices would hit the rich, who use more energy, harder, and would force everyone to try even harder to economise, putting some downward pressure on demand and therefore prices. The poor would be helped, and the total amount paid for energy would be marginally lower than it would have been, and government finances would not be impacted.

The only problem with this is idea of yours that it is actually the poor that consume far more energy than the rich. Not just because the poor massively outnumber the rich, but because the poor are living in substandard energy inefficient homes that cost more to heat to a decent temperature. So the poor would pay more in than they’d ever get back with your idea.

Median required fuel costs for the least efficient properties are over 2 times higher than costs for the most efficient properties. These figures are from the 2022 Fuel Poverty factsheet but use 2020 prices. So you will have to mentally multiply them by 4 to get a feel for the median costs coming in October (added in brackets by me)

Median Fuel costs by EPC rating
A-C - £1,061 (£4,244)
D- £1,312 (£5,248)
E- £1,716 (£6,864)
F-G - £2,397 (£9,588)

55% of fuel poor households live in properties with EPC rating of D or below. 25% in properties rated D-E and 30% in properties rated F-G. A lot of this is linked to the private rental sector. Households living in privately rented accommodation are most likely to be fuel poor (25.0%). Despite only 18.7% of all households privately renting their homes, 35.4% of all fuel poor households live in this type of accommodation.

side bar on how the energy crisis is being compunded by a rental shortage crisis: This is largely because a landlord has no incentive to spend thousands of £ making a property energy efficient when all the savings are to the tenants energy bills. The landlord gets zero return from any investment in insulation, heat pumps, solar panels, etc. Which is why new legislation is raising the minimum EPC rating required on private rentals. But instead of forcing landlord to make the property more energy efficient, they are instead getting out of the private rental sector in droves- some are selling up, some are converting to less regulated holiday lets. This in turn has created a rent crisis where rents are increasing dramatically, average rent per month rose by £100 in a single month this year. So tenants are now paying more rent to live in still energy inefficient properties (because the legislation isn’t in force yet so few landlords have actually spent the money to bring properties up to the new standard).

ImWell · 11/08/2022 12:12

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How so? That’s the number that we’re talking about from your figures. £1.3 billion pounds over 30 million households is about £40 per household.

Come in, admit it, you saw the big number and assumed that it’d be many hundreds per household, didn’t you?

ImWell · 11/08/2022 12:14

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 11:32

No, the average debt is £206 as it’s 6 million households in debt.
www.lbc.co.uk/news/brits-energy-debt-martin-lewis-slams-zombie-government/

It’s important to note that total debt was £1bn in April, and so has increased quite steeply by 33% to the record high £1.3bn in 90 days….which should not be happening in summer as the usual trend is the debt goes down over the warmer months.

And per household across the country it’s £40.

Even £206 isn’t really so much as a total over those in debt.

But still, you get to show how much you really care. Is that about the start and end of what you’re planning to do about it, or have you something more concrete in mind?

Lunar270 · 11/08/2022 12:29

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PEDRO12 · 11/08/2022 12:54

ImWell · 11/08/2022 12:14

And per household across the country it’s £40.

Even £206 isn’t really so much as a total over those in debt.

But still, you get to show how much you really care. Is that about the start and end of what you’re planning to do about it, or have you something more concrete in mind?

In AUGUST...

BEFORE any really major price hikes kick in.

Its not something to be laughing about and be trivial about, we are already well behind the curve of where we need to be before August is even done and as more people lose their cheap fixed rate, and more go onto either an even higher fix (17-18p kwh) or the SVR which won't be far away from those figures come Jan.

We really need to hope that the govt pull through, otherwise I suspect 20 million will be in debt come April and the total debt will be north of 10 billion.

PseudonymPolly · 11/08/2022 13:13

No one should be in energy debt towards the end of summer when it's warm and light. You 'should' be several hundred quid in credit or the equivalent in savings.

Even being at £0 at this point in the year will be a massive issue for many when winter usage plus second massive rate rises kick in.

cakeorwine · 11/08/2022 13:27

ImWell · 11/08/2022 12:12

How so? That’s the number that we’re talking about from your figures. £1.3 billion pounds over 30 million households is about £40 per household.

Come in, admit it, you saw the big number and assumed that it’d be many hundreds per household, didn’t you?

You do understand about data, don't you?

There are many households already in household debt - that is an average of £206 for those households.

There are many households who have negative disposable income. Do you understand what that means?

There are many households with no savings.

cakeorwine · 11/08/2022 13:30

There is plenty of data out there with disposable income, savings, credit card debt, other debt

It's not a good picture

cakeorwine · 11/08/2022 13:31

PseudonymPolly · 11/08/2022 13:13

No one should be in energy debt towards the end of summer when it's warm and light. You 'should' be several hundred quid in credit or the equivalent in savings.

Even being at £0 at this point in the year will be a massive issue for many when winter usage plus second massive rate rises kick in.

This. Especially if they are on prepayment / PAYG as the winter bills this year will be 3 times more than last year after a warm summer

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 13:39

ImWell · 11/08/2022 12:14

And per household across the country it’s £40.

Even £206 isn’t really so much as a total over those in debt.

But still, you get to show how much you really care. Is that about the start and end of what you’re planning to do about it, or have you something more concrete in mind?

No really it’s just answering your request for evidence that millions of households cannot afford to put the heating on this winter. Since there are already 6 million households in energy debt and around 300,000 households on prepayment meters currently unable to even afford a single light bulb or to run a fridge in their house, that’s at least 6.3 million households definitely unable to afford to put the heating on this winter. And since there are around 28 million households in the U.K., that’s 22.5% of all households. It’s not a small fraction.

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 13:47

Is that about the start and end of what you’re planning to do about it, or have you something more concrete in mind?

Yes this is about all I can do being disabled and effectively housebound. No money or physical strength to travel to London and protest outside #10. What about you?

Gingermoth · 11/08/2022 17:14

I saw a chap on the news at lunch saying in the winter, those on prepayment meters will need to be topping up £50 everything 3 days! How the hell can people do that??

ImWell · 11/08/2022 17:20

Discovereads · 11/08/2022 13:47

Is that about the start and end of what you’re planning to do about it, or have you something more concrete in mind?

Yes this is about all I can do being disabled and effectively housebound. No money or physical strength to travel to London and protest outside #10. What about you?

Given that I don’t think it’s anything to protest over, I won’t be protesting. I’ll probably keep the Range Rover well fuelled in case any of the idiots protesting decide to block petrol stations.

AndreaC74 · 11/08/2022 17:24

Getoff · 11/08/2022 10:16

Your suggestion would cost many billions, more than what it has cost France.

Explain why? Cost who? There would be some redistribution from better of to worse off people, and no net cost to the government.

You want top up payments to those on UC and expand it to inc those currently not on it.

So we are looking at £1000s to help the working poor and on benefits.

You'll have to explain how much you propose to charge the wealthy per unit, who can easily get round it with Solar and batteries.

Demand is driven by business as well & they have no cap.

Our growth is to be 19th in the G20, that is a really issue, caused in the main by the people in power right now.

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