To think it's unfair that people signed up to "green" energy are seeing price rises too?

[PaddleBoardingMomma]

I'm sure someone can point out to me why I'm being stupid, but I had presumed those on 100% renewable tariffs would be cushioned from the price increases?

If you're on a green tariff, are you annoyed / surprised by the huge price hikes?

Not really. They need to make it worth the companies while to invest in green energy so its got to be treated the same. Otherwise they wouldn't bother if they could get more money with coal etx

Why should it be different?

I was just (naively, I suppose) under the impression that if your energy was coming from renewables like wind and tide energy, then price hikes like we are seeing now wouldn't effect the cost or supply of renewable? I suppose it shows more that I completely misunderstood the true nature of what companies peddle as renewable

It takes a lot of oil to mine and utilise the rare metals that are needed to make solar panels, batteries etc. cheap oil actually allowed renewables to be developed more economically. Oil prices rising affects renewable prices too.

But the energy you get in your house is the same energy you get whatever your tariff states, whoever you pay for it. It's the same gas in the pipes the same electricity in the wires. It doesn't come from different sources just because your tariff is green.

All the tariff means is that your money is going to fund 100% renewable projects, not fossil fuel power stations.

I understand now! I feel quite thick 🤣 goes to show I hadn't really looked into where the energy came from and what it all meant before the prices went wild. I presumed you were on a green tariff, your supply was renewable. I feel very stupid 😂

A cynic writes:

Windfarms sell to the wholesale electricity market at the price their customers are willing to pay - so it is the same price as electricity from gas, nuclear etc. They can also export to our European neighbours who are also willing to pay the price, and maybe a slightly higher price.

Some older windfarms agreed guaranteed price deals with the government so that they would receive subsidies as the price they needed to be economic was say, £60/MWh when the wholesale price was lower - say £50/MWh. When the wholesale price increased above £60 they stopped receiving subsidy, but some of the earlier contracts never envisioned prices going so high and there was no repayment to the government. The windfarms keep all the extra money.

Most windfarms have deals where the government pays subsidy when the price is below the agreed price, and the windfarm pays the government when the price is above the agreed price. I can't find data about how much of the "extra" price the windfarm keeps and how much goes to the government - it is likely to be "commercially sensitive" (ie. embarrassing to one or both parties)

Some brand new windfarms are signed up to similar deals (and actually with a lower guaranteed price), but there is a loophole. To supposedly allow for building delays and commissioning etc, the guaranteed price doesn't come into effect as soon as the windfarm starts generating, the windfarm company can delay the onset of the contract. Of course at the moment all the contracts are being delayed whilst the windfarm rakes in the money at the massive wholesale prices of today.

As to actual prices, as recently as 2020 wholesale electricity was £50/MWh and it is currently running at £200 to £250/MWh. Deals signed for offshore windfarms (due to come online by 2026) in the recent auction have the guaranteed price as low as £37/MWh for 15 years, which shows how much someone is making!

You know that the wind isn't blowing much this week? www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

You can I invest yourself into solar panels

Small ones to charge a few items like mobile phones

Some properties have solar panels. It takes a few years to pay off the initial cost & extra energy can be sold back to the National Grid

The Government is also attempting to get everyone to insulate their homes better too

Regardless of energy mix, the marginal provider is where the price volatility impacts everything. If a country requires gas to act as balance load, then you will be part of the international gas market. If there is a disruption or loss of supply, that will raise prices until some form of demand destruction occurs.

I was told my electricity supply was coming from 100% renewable sources. In Scotland, I take this to mean from solar, tide, wind and hydro. So I asked the question here on MN a few months ago on this thread: www.mumsnet.com/talk/credit_crunch/4484664-MNHQ-Here-Worried-about-your-energy-bills-National-Energy-Action-will-be-here-Wednesday-23rd-Feb-to-answer-your-questions?reply=115351729

HirplesWithHaggis
It is my understanding that the price increases are due to global gas prices shooting up, and we use gas to make electricity. However, I am in Scotland and with a company that supplies only renewable energy - so from wind - so why am I effected?

Reply: (from MattNationalEnergyAction) Yes, you are correct that the price increases are largely due to the global gas price. Unfortunately, the way in which the power market works is that each generator gets paid roughly the same amount of money per unit produced at any particular time, and this is set by the highest cost generator running. That means that if the gas price is high, the price of all generators is set by that high gas price, regardless of the fuel they use. Of course, if your supplier has its own contract with wind farms, this can be avoided. But it seems likely they buy it from the wholesale market.

Sounds like massive, dangling, hairy bollocks to me.

@HirplesWithHaggis That's how the market works. If you had large differences in price between the provider of last resort and renewable or other baseload, there would be arbitrage opportunities that close the gap.

Therefore, since no nation on Earth is disconnected from the global markets and fully energy independent, you will get auctions on what gas is available to offset loss in renewable productive capacity when it isn't sunny or windy (tidal is absolutely negligible in output). And as you can see, we are using a metric tonne of gas daily. For everything. And this gets worse in winter when we use it for heat as well as light and power.

If you look at the stats for the National Grid, only a small percentage is currently provided by water, wind or solar

My question is, where will all the extra electricity come from when all transport goes electric & the electric charging points ?

Perhaps someone will invent some new green technology ?

No one knows yet, there’s just lots of planning scenarios: could be more solar, wind and tidal being built, or we could go down the green hydrogen route.

The general idea is that there’ll be much more personal generation like solar, with excess power sold back to the grid.

The big change will be much more storage – batteries – on the grid so stuff like the solar power generated now can be saved for later, and ditto the wind power generated in winter.

But the power networks are having to plan for all eventualities, and a lot of it is pie in the sky until the government gets its act together.