To think PTS is not the worse thing that can happen to an animal.

[Arashi]

I breed dogs and have done for 20 years. In that time I've had 8 litters (including one now). I always keep a puppy, I am licenced, extensively health test, vet the homes, offer life time back up including offer free puppy training classes for my pups and lifetime "issue" support (I'm a qualified behaviourist). I have a waiting list and most people are on it an average of 18 months. I keep mine until they die of old age not replace them when their breeding days are done. They are part of the family and I love them all dearly.

I also am loosely involved in the breed specific rescue in that I offer my behaviour assessments free, have fostered on occasion, and provide transport around the country.

There is a woman, let's call her Susan, who I know vaguely from the agility circuit. She has a tendency to buy herself a large breed working dog, clearly not train it or invest time in it and then by the time it's 2/3 years old and large and unruly (and occasionally aggressive) she gets rid and gets another puppy and the circle starts again. Each time she swears she's train it better. She currently has an imported German Shepherd. The pup is 13 months and is extremely fear reactive. She is unpredictable, reacts to both dogs and people and honestly is a serious accident waiting to happen. She has bitten Susan (stiches required) who now wants to rehome her

I have been asked by the organiser of the agility group - Jane - if I could take the dog. As I have pups on the ground I said I could but not for another 6 weeks when they have gone as I just won't have the time right now. I provided a couple of rescues I thought might be able to help quicker but there is some concern about her worsening in a kennel environment and finding a suitable Foster home isn't easy. Susan doesn't want to wait and is proposing to PTS. Jane has rung me in a panic saying that if the dog is due to be PTS on Friday and I need to help. I've explained I can't and the reasons and as part of the conversation I said the exact words "PTS is not the worse thing that could happen to that dog"

Jane has gone ballistic and I mean ballistic. She has "reported" me to the charities I work with as unsuitable to work in rescue as I believe it's OK to kill animals. Is saying I clearly just want to kill them to make way for people to buy my puppies. And has banned me from the agility group.

It all seems a bit overdramatic but surely it is not that "controversial" of an opinion?

I agree with you, though I think such a young animal should very given a second chance if at all possible. Susan is clearly an irresponsible fuckwit. Jane's energy would very better spent on convincing Susan not to get another dog. Has nobody told her she's a twat?

You sound great.

Susan sounds like she should be banned from owning any dog at all. If anyone is getting banned from agility it should be Susan.

Jane sounds like a familiar type.

Fwiw, I agree with you 100%. But plenty of people who work in dog rescue think like Jane.

You are not being unreasonable as abuse of an animal is far worse.
It's Susan that Jane should be going ballistic with. How can she keep taking on dogs then "replacing" them because she can't handle them? Susan needs to be reported. Why can't Jane take on the puppy? I think Susan needs to be stopped from having a healthy dog put to sleep when you know that she will get another puppy shortly afterwards. She should be banned from keeping dogs if she can't look after them properly. The dogs should not suffer because of her lack of knowledge.

I agree. I've seen horses that are horribly lame, kept going on drugs because the owner "loves them too much to let them go".

A peaceful death is a blessing that not enough animals get.

You’re a lot more reasonable than me. I would decline to foster a dog that’s people and dog reactive when I’ve got my own dogs in the house. Too risky.

You know why this cow is making trouble for you, it’s because she has a great plan in her mind and you’re not co-operating.

An off-the-cuff remark is no reason to try and destroy your reputation. This woman is a lunatic

My dad always taught us that owning any animal was an immense privilege. It was our duty to make sure they don't suffer. For me that means putting to sleep at the correct time. I would never ever do it on a whim, or for minor issues though. I've got a rescue that has horrific issues, will likely never be fully house trained , can't seem to over come hey issues from human caused trauma etc. I love her and tolerate her behaviour. But if anything happened that meant I couldn't care for her any longer, she would be pts as a kindness. She couldn't handle another round of homes.

I often see a friend of my family that runs working dogs. At the end of their work life, they often don't understand why they aren't going to work anymore. They struggle to transition. Some of those dogs have had to be pts as a kindness. But the work they do is vital and they are much loved. Its a kindness to the dog.

I agree with you fully.

Susan should be banned from keeping animals.
Jane should think before she speaks.
if the dog is dangerously reactive it’s not a happy dog and who on earth would take it on unless for Police or security work ( if that is at all possible)
Its a very sad situation, I’m a dog lover but you can’t leave a potentially dangerous dog to be adopted when it won’t know anything the vet is doing.

Ahh well Susan is independently wealthy and contributes generously to all things group related. To be fair she is a lovely person excluding the animal thing and I think that's more that she just views them as possessions like a bag and when it's not great she moves on. Words have been had with her but she's quite urmmm ..rigid (?) confident (?) in her opinions and eont be swayed. This is the 5th dog I've seen her with and I think it's around 8/9 years I've known her. I've told her she'd be better buying an older dog that's been trained and pay for some lessons but she loves the puppy phase.

Jane is not usually this reactive (lol) but she is strongly rescue focused and there have been small digs about breeding in the past but I just didn't expect this level of well anger at what I think is a perfectly reasonable opinion.

I've been lucky in that the rescues I've worked with haven't been particularly neglected physically but that's not to say I haven't seen or heard the stories and I know a dog like this in the wrong hands or wrong environment is a disaster. Shes about 35kg now so she's not a small fluffy pile of cuteness. She's a ball of angry scared muscle.

Tbf I suppose its not a AIBU because even if you were all yes you are I'd be no I'm not (the worse kind of poster) but I just genuinely don't get where this idea of alive at all costs comes from. I don't get it with people either. Maybe I am just a callous bitch

I don't think you're a callous bitch, I think you're a realist and a fab breeder....wish there were more like you.
Regardless if Susan donates generously to a given cause she obviously is clueless about what it takes to have a dog of say a particular breed!
Jane well Jane is a complete tool. I work in the veterinary field, I agree with you entirely. Some animals that are put into shelters meet the same fate for less issues than what Susan's dog has at present so Jane needs to get her head out of her arse. If she's so concerned she should take the dog!

This says more about Jane than you. Why can’t she take the dog? Her plan seems incredibly reckless. At least you know where you stand with her now.

Jane needs to take the dog.

I agree entirely, it's our responsibility as decent owners to do what's right for the dog. Having to make those PTS calls is the last thing we can do for beloved pets, and one of the hardest for us.

I've seen it with horses too, horses bought by owners who aren't experienced enough, then passed on because owner can't/won't work with the horse and then buying a new one that's equally not suited to them.

I’m another who thinks that if Jane is so upset at the prospect, she should put her own money where her mouth is and take the dog on herself. I also wouldn’t be bringing a dog like that into a household with my own dogs.

The sad truth is that there are many Susans out there, and many rescues passing real problem dogs on to owners. I am a firm believer that dog ownership should actually be a pleasure once you’ve put an appropriate amount of work in, and some of these dogs would be far better PTS and let people re-home dogs they have a decent chance of actually enjoying - very sad, and I am glad I’m not the one having to make the decisions.

Oh, and if the dog is to be PTS, it should be Susan who has to own her actions and take it - not pass the buck to someone else. Perhaps if it came to that, she just might stop and think a bit harder next time.

I completely agree with your dad - those are wise words indeed.

I have already told the dds that for our dog that pts when the time comes for him for whatever reason is part of giving an animal loving care - as others have said - a peaceful death is a kindness.

Susan being a total irresponsible idiot isn't your problem to fix. Sad for the dog, but if it's a large breed that's bitten someone to the extent they need stitches then pts is probably for the best anyway.

If Jane feels so strongly about it, she can take the dog.

Why isn’t Jane dropping everything to have the dog?

I fully agree with you.

I didn't always think this way and it was my childhood horse that made the "good death" important to me.

She will forever be my regret. I let her go on too long burying my head in the sand and finding her collapsed in her stable broke me. Although she had been fine(ish) a hour or so previously, she was late 30s and I kept doing last summer / winter cycles. I like to think I gave her comfort at the end but honestly she deserved a better death than she got. She should have been in the field with the sun on her back and a bucket of all the treats she couldn't usually have due to cushings / lami.

It's difficult to know when the right Time is, but someone told me better a week to early than a day too late and that's stuck with me.i suppose.

You are not unreasonable
Susan is not lovely she is a selfish thoughtless bitch.

I dint agree with animals being pts to suit a human convenience. However, if this is a dog that's reactive to humans and animals, then realistically being pts is going to always be a risk with that animal. Unless they can gene placed with someone who can help the animal properly.
For the sake of a few weeks then the stupid woman should wait until you are able to take the dog. A decent human being would do that for the animal that they have ruined due to their own incompetence as an owner.
If not....then yes, you're right and the dog needs to be pts....which pains me to say as a dog owner who has a dog with several complex medical conditions but the strongest will in the world to live....and I'm so proud of my amazing dog for doing that....but this dog isn't happy and is a danger.
I think that Susan needs to be banned from owning animals and jane needs to grow up.

Having volunteered in animal rescue myself, one of the things I encountered time and again was the problem with the (completely admirable and laudable) aim of “never put a healthy animal down”.

The reason I call it a problem is because the definition of “healthy” is often too narrow and focused entirely on physical health. But animals deserve to live psychologically healthy lives too, and a dog that’s so stressed and fearful it has resorted to aggression as a standard ‘go-to’ response can’t be described as happy or healthy.

The biggest regret and most guilt I have from my pet owning history is over the dog we tried to keep going that little bit too long for our sake when he was struggling, not the ones I’ve let go a day too early.

I agree with you entirely, OP. Never putting a healthy dog down really doesn't apply to dogs who are dangerous. It's not the dog's fault, but keeping reactive dogs with a history of biting alive is usually a really bad idea.

Susan sounds like an absolute liability who shouldn't have dogs, and Jane needs an introduction to reality.

I dint agree with animals being pts to suit a human convenience.

I don't agree with animals being kept alive (by being given medical treatments) to suit the interests of their humans. Unless the treatment removes suffering immediately. I wince when I hear of an animal being treated for a serious condition that's potentially fatal. I suspect in nearly all such cases it would be better for the animal to be PTS.

Animals aren't people, they don't fear a PTS death, because they don't understand it. Killing an animal is not morally equivalent to killing a human.

People (like Jane) who think animals should be treated the way a human would be haven't thought things through.

By "better for the animal to be PTS" I meant it would be best for the animal, not necessarily best for its owner.

I read that PTS is not a welfare issue as the dog doesn’t suffer. The ethical issue is around how much the dog is made to suffer to suit the humans.

I dont agree with animals being pts to suit a human convenience

Everything about animals is based on human convenience. Whether it should be or not is a whole other debate about humans and their place on the planet.

We chose where they live, how they live, whether they classed as wild, pets, farm or vermin and then treat them accordingly.

Like a previous poster I think the concept of never put a healthy animals down is wonderful thing and truly admirable but what is healthy? There is a rescue kennels near me and many of the residents in that kennels have been there for 10 years plus. I an not saying they are not cared for because they are, they are fed, watered, given medical treatment and allowed 1 hour out either as a walk with volunteers or in the enrichment room. Some appear to be coping OK, some clearly have shut down. Would they be better off PTS. Arguably yes.

Older dogs being given up to rescue gives me the absolute rage. In most cases the dog has been a loyal companion for its whole life and most people aren't giving them up because they dickheads, but because work, housing, money, and because those people worry about the optics of putting a healthy dog to sleep they give it up instead. The kindest thing for that dog is to PTS in the arms of its owner even if thats for the convenience of their owners. The dog will likely spend the rest of its life in kennel which is a completely different environment to a home, its away from the people it's love its while life. Yes there are some Foster homes for these dogs but not as many dogs as there are.

Keeping animals alive for the convenience of humans is just as wrong. And indeed borders on despicable at times.