To be shocked that you can buy a pair if shoes for £4

[Bemyclementine]

In primark? I saw someone post on a Facebook group, lots of people raving about them. A couple if people questioning ut.

I kniw good shoes can be expensive, and I know the saying (not exactly...)that a poor man pays £10 for boots that last 6 months, a rich man pays £50 and they last 10 years.

But still, they must be crap, they can't be comfortable or good fir your feet, not to mention the conditions if the people making them?

I know there's a cost if living crisis, I am struggling very much myself. I'm lucky that in years gone by I bought decent shoes that I can still wear.

Lots of people try to stick to trends, even you do as you’re saying “I’m not buying stuff just because it happens to fit, it has to suit me as a person too”.

It’s that ethical shoppers on a budget just can’t always have the latest fashion/trend too. But then what’s more important? Looking good or ethics?

Yes plenty will, but presumably before buying expensive new shoes you will have researched the company and their steps to combat modern slavery and their net zero supply chain environmental efforts. Even if you haven’t, the risk you’re buying shoes made by slaves is EXPONENTIALLY LESS than when you buy £4 shoes that literally could not have been made without the use of slave labour. You’re choosing to buy with 100 certainty they were made by slaves vs buying with only a 5-10% risk a slave might have made more expensive shoes.

Thats not being “naive” that’s being informed and ethical. You’re the one making excuses by saying it sometimes happens with more expensive shoes so that’s alright then that I’ve bought slave made shoes.

No, it’s not alright.

Its sick and that same mentality crosses over into much worse industries like sex work. You sound just like reports I’ve read of men using prostitutes and saying oh yeah a £10 girl is most probably a trafficked sex slave but so could that £1000 escort be trafficked as well. So why should I pay more and stop using these £10 girls at that local pop up brothel on AirBnB?

I bought a hoodie in Primark for £7. Thought I was getting a bargain until it fell apart in the washing machine after one wear.

I find Primark ok for baby clothes and pyjamas, but it’s terrible most of the time. I know so many people who love it and I really don’t get why.

What's more important? A glow of secure satisfaction at being middleclass above such conceits as wanting to look smart and tidy or not getting bollocked at work when you're on a fixed term/zero hours contract or still within the two year period where they can end your employment for any reason at all - including that they don't like how tatty you look?

I had to stump up £35 for five Primark frocks to cover me when my fixed term contract was coming to an end (a senior member of staff gave me a heads up that it was an issue that I was wearing clothes far too big and were clearly worn out) and £55 for DP to have a jacket, trousers, shirt and shoes for his first interview in three years - he'd been too unwell to work, so the fact that he'd actually got to interview in the first place was a big thing. As there was zero budget for clothing and hadn't been for three years and four stone in weight on my part, it took a lot of judicious juggling, knocking of bills and a lot of potatoes for dinner, but we both got the new jobs and could get back to normality by the end of the second month without incurring any late payment penalties or recovery actions.

Had it not been for Primark, the one place within walking distance that sold clothes that were good enough for interview and to keep considerably more privileged management happy, we'd have been screwed.

Ethics mean fuck all when you're at the point of losing the lot.

I bought a pair of shoes in marks and Spencer’s for £1. It was some years ago and they were in the sale. One of my best buys to be honest.

Sorry I disagree. You’re better off than I am and I will never ever patronise places like Primark ever. You can look smart and tidy without shopping at Primark and without paying more money to do so. You may look a bit conservative/traditional because you have to pick classic cuts and colours but you won’t look tatty and there is no reason to buy items that are too large and worn out,

As for “losing the lot”, been there and done that. Guess it’s all about whether your ethics are disposable when they become inconvenient or not.

How was I 'better off' than you at the time? How do you know I was 'better off' than you on previous occasions?

My clothes were too large and worn out because I'd lost so much weight and they were around ten years old. DP didn't have smart clothes at all.

If I'd gone to the charity shops, I'd find, as I had previously, that there was primark clothing up for more than the original selling price and things inappropriate for office wear in my size.

All I wanted was staid and boring. It was what my employer was happy with. Staid, Conservative and inoffensive. It saved us.

Like ethics around food, which apply just so long as you actually have food in the cupboard (the cheapest food of all when you have nothing to eat and no means of paying for any is free food - so fussing about whether it was vegetarian or not was pointless). I'm not into martyrdom or self flagellation. I fucking survived. Repeatedly. It's what I do.

I'm better off now than then because we got jobs as a direct result. Jobs that progressed into better paid jobs. Jobs that make it possible to buy organic bamboo boxers or whatever the hell it is that you think is acceptable. Wouldn't be here now posting were it not for the opportunities that buying some cheap ass clothes from a company that has a better human rights record than most of the more expensive stores have gave us both.

Somebody else might really suffer mentally from being subjected to your attitude. I won't apologise or regret surviving, not for buying cheap clothes, not for taking free food, not for stealing, lying or anything else I did to be able to get through days, weeks, months and years where I had less than nothing. Nobody should.

Nothing wrong with buying cheap clothes, I buy almost everything I wear off vinted and regularly get decent shoes for a couple of quid and tops for £1. It's not primark or nothing if you're poor, there are other options (assuming you have access to the internet which, let's face it, most people do).

I have bought stuff from primark though, but I do worry about the ethics and what the human cost is of producing such cheap stuff.

But to the OP, yes, some people really can't afford more than a few quid on shoes. And to everyone who is in that position, which I am, then really give Vinted etc a look first. You can get much better quality than primark and often for cheaper.

North London.

@PollysPockets

I totally understand why people would buy them. They just shouldn’t be sold, but the living conditions of the people making them will be worse than anything we can imagine in this part of the world.

Shouldn’t be sold BECAUSE of the living conditions

Can you?! What a big one?

You described your situation in some detail and yes, you were better off than me then and are better off than me now. If you ever really had “less than nothing” you wouldn’t have had the money to buy a sausage roll from Greggs much less five new dresses from Primark. Yes my attitude is pretty shit, but I don’t care for being called middle class or privileged by people better off than me crying poverty and claiming you cannot be both poor and ethical when I know for a fact you can.

The reason we had food at all that month was because somebody I worked with turned up at mine with a Morrison's shop - she'd realised I was being given leftover food by the kitchen and minesweeping food from catered meetings. I was still in debt from previous bouts of unemployment (still am, actually, on the last £2759 now, only nine years later) as I didn't earn enough to get out of it - I was at my overdraft limit within 24 hours of being paid. So I did have less than nothing, thousands less than nothing - because of the size of the debt. I blobbed bills to use the overdraft money for the clothes because I knew if I did nothing, I wouldn't be able to pay the council tax, rent, phone, food, gas, electric or anything else, never mind food.

Fuck moral superiority. I gambled and it paid off. Very well as it happens, as we now have an income of somewhere near nine times what I brought in for the two of us. That wasn't from a position of advantage, it was an act of desperation, made possible by the fact that the clothes were cheap.

When I need to replace the clothes, I will. And the chances are that I'll buy from somewhere else. Because now, I can. But frankly, whatever you are using to access the internet is more likely to have been the result of slavery than the dresses I wore to get myself a job. Of course, a truly ethical person wouldn't have a computer or mobile device in the first place because of the slavery and the environmental damage caused by the acquisition of the raw materials. But then I suppose you wouldn't be able to tell us all how you're a better poor person than other poor people?

That wasn't from a position of advantage, it was an act of desperation, made possible by the fact that the clothes were cheap.

But you had a choice. You could have spent that £35 on clothes not from Primark, but from a charity shop or instead of buying 5 new dresses have bought 2 new ones from a retailer that doesn’t use slave labour. The same with the £55 you spent on your DH. That’s my point, in your desperation, you still had a choice.

But frankly, whatever you are using to access the internet is more likely to have been the result of slavery than the dresses I wore to get myself a job.

Youre changing your story here. You said the 5 new dresses were necessary to keep a job you already had, not to get a job.

What I’m using to access the internet, yes there is a risk that slave labour was used to manufacture it, but again that’s why I research and consciously choose to use products with the best track record even when buying second hand. Btw, the tablet I have now was a gift, from a similarly ethical buyer.

Yes, it’s almost impossible to guarantee you’ll never buy something that was produced by slave labour. The red flags aren’t always there. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try….or deliberately ignore massive red flags

No ethical buyer would buy anything at a price- ie £4 new shoes or £7 new dresses- that realistically in any country could only cover the cost of materials. When you’re paying £4 for new shoes or £7 for a new dress, you have to know that you’re paying £0 for labour that went into making it (unless you’re particularly bad at maths) You’re not buying knowing there’s a risk and doing everything you can to lower that risk, youre buying an item while fully knowing the price on the item couldn’t be offered unless slaves made it, otherwise the company, Primark, would be going bankrupt instead of making profits.

No, I couldn't. Because when we went to the two charity shops within walking distance that were still open at 4.30pm when I finished work, they didn't have anything that a) fitted either of us, b) was suitable for work or c) was cheaper than Primark. I needed 5 acceptable outfits for work immediately. He needed interview clothing for 9.15 the following morning and being 5'6", that required a suit and shirt in a short fitting so he didn't turn up to interview looking like a Year 7 on the 5th of September. Men's shoes aren't often available in a size 6, either - certainly not when relying upon an entire ensemble being donated to a charity shop that just happens to be within walking distance.

Perhaps I need to explain my employment situation better. I had a fixed term contract that was coming to an end. My employer was deciding whether to offer me a new contract with a change of duties/permanent status or not and was already unhappy about how I looked. One £35 dress worn every single day of the week would not have sufficed in their eyes, but they were happy when I had decent looking, properly fitting clothes every day of the week - they went on to offer me a new, permanent contract with a different set of responsibilities including a lot of 'promotional/higher profile' stuff (hence the requirement to show I could smarten up) which led on to other roles and a significant increase in income over the subsequent years.

I don't have an objection to charity shop stuff. Half of my furniture has been retrieved out of skips or off the street and the last time I bought a brand new book was when I was studying and the course text was a brand new edition. But when what you need is not there, it's not there. And if you need clothes urgently but do not have the money to spend at Marks and Spencers (or the Mind charity shop that charges more for a second hand Primark T shirt than Primark charge for the brand new version), you can't blithely say 'oh, something will turn up in the next ten minutes'. Not when you know your employment from the 1st of next month depends upon it.

@NeverDropYourMooncup
I feel better that you at least tried to avoid Primark and had gone to charity shops first. Sounds as if it was a last resort to you, which I failed to understand.

Charity shops don't seem to exist so that poor people can buy goods cheaply...the ones near me sell absolute tat for ridiculous prices

I bought some 'emergency' Birkenstock-type sandals from Primark and then the real thing from ebay. Primark shoes are shit, that's what I learned.

Out of curiosity, if everyone stops buying from shops like Primark, what happens to these poor factory workers? Do they end up with no job at all?

I've been Sam Vines broke before. The trouble with saving a little bit every month (let's say £5) for the £50 shoes is that it takes 10 months to save £50. And that assumes no other one-off expenses (a larger than expected bill, an essential repair, an emergency transport cost) set you back during that period.

If your shoes have holes in them and the soles are flapping and letting in rain (which I've had happen to me many times) ... then you need new shoes NOW. Not in 10 months.

Getting a good pair at the charity shop, or off eBay or Vinted or FB relies on a lot of luck.

When you need those new shoes, there MAY be a pair of shoes at the charity shop that are in your size, not too manky, and feel ok on your feet. Or there may not be.

When your shoes finally break, there MAY be a good quality secondhand pair of shoes online that aren't half-destroyed, for sale at around £15 (so... three months of saving, instead of 10). Or there may not be. The seller MAY be honest about the condition of the shoes ("very good condition, only worn a few times ☺️"), or they may be hiding flaws from the photos and unwilling to accept a return or pay for your return postage, should you be dissatisfied.

That's why Sam Vines shops at Primark.

As for the more fortunate population who could afford the £100 ... I read once that one reason well-off people maintain that status is because they won't max out their income on things like food, clothes, mobile phones contracts, utility bills, mortgage interest rates, etc. The more well-off put in the time (since they have that luxury) of seeking out the lowest acceptable price point for the thing they're spending money on. Which leaves them more income for things worth saving for.

Community Clothing, which will be supplying clothes to Team England for the Commonwealth Games, makes nice-enough quality clothes in England. It's about as locally made as it gets. If you shop there, you will be spending between £60-70 for one pair of trousers, £39 for one long sleeved t-shirt, and £4 for one pair of socks. I bought a 4-pack of their socks for my DH last Christmas as a present, and with regular wear and washing the elastic at the cuffs is already starting to go.

Solovair are UK made, largely by originally DM staff. They last like used to.

This place is like a parallel universe sometimes. All this hand wringing over Primark. Everytime I go it's packed...and not just poverty stricken, desperate shoeless people. I have lots of well off friends who pop in there for the odd thing.

My £10 boots from Primark are still going strong 4 years later. I've some £6 ballet pump ones that are the same age, only worn in the summer though. I'd rather pay £4frlm Primark than £50 from Clarks as the Clarks ones will last the same length of time, the quality now is awful.

I know, it’s disgusting. You can see why slavery lasted so long when there was a British Empire. No one gives two shits about anyone else, so they’re happy to support slavers and slave owners by giving them their business. Their pocket book matters more than ethics or the environment for that matter. Unless it’s Lush who is pro trans, then OMG must boycott.