Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

St Mark's Church in Mayfair turned into a food hall

298 replies

successstories · 26/07/2022 10:29

I was quite uncomfortable to see this former place of worship being turned into a food hall.

There was something disturbing about spaghetti and pizza being dished up in front of all the religious objects and imagery (which are very prominent, still in situ and pretty much intact)

Isn't there a Christian organisation that could have ensured this building was preserved for a more suitable use? If this had happened to a Synagogue or a Mosque for example, there would have been outrage.

AIBU?

OP posts:
vera99 · 26/07/2022 18:08

Philip Larkin
1922-1985
"Church Going"
Once I am sure there's nothing going on
I step inside, letting the door thud shut.
Another church: matting, seats, and stone,
And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut
For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff
Up at the holy end; the small neat organ;
And a tense, musty, unignorable silence,
Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off
My cycle-clips in awkward reverence,
Move forward, run my hand around the font.
From where I stand, the roof looks almost new-
Cleaned or restored? Someone would know: I don't.
Mounting the lectern, I peruse a few
Hectoring large-scale verses, and pronounce
"Here endeth" much more loudly than I'd meant.
The echoes snigger briefly. Back at the door
I sign the book, donate an Irish sixpence,
Reflect the place was not worth stopping for.
Yet stop I did: in fact I often do,
And always end much at a loss like this,
Wondering what to look for; wondering, too,
When churches fall completely out of use
What we shall turn them into, if we shall keep
A few cathedrals chronically on show,
Their parchment, plate, and pyx in locked cases,
And let the rest rent-free to rain and sheep.
Shall we avoid them as unlucky places?
Or, after dark, will dubious women come
To make their children touch a particular stone;
Pick simples for a cancer; or on some
Advised night see walking a dead one?
Power of some sort or other will go on
In games, in riddles, seemingly at random;
But superstition, like belief, must die,
And what remains when disbelief has gone?
Grass, weedy pavement, brambles, buttress, sky,
A shape less recognizable each week,
A purpose more obscure. I wonder who
Will be the last, the very last, to seek
This place for what it was; one of the crew
That tap and jot and know what rood-lofts were?
Some ruin-bibber, randy for antique,
Or Christmas-addict, counting on a whiff
Of gown-and-bands and organ-pipes and myrrh?
Or will he be my representative,
Bored, uninformed, knowing the ghostly silt
Dispersed, yet tending to this cross of ground
Through suburb scrub because it held unspilt
So long and equably what since is found
Only in separation – marriage, and birth,
And death, and thoughts of these – for whom was built
This special shell? For, though I've no idea
What this accoutred frowsty barn is worth,
It pleases me to stand in silence here;
A serious house on serious earth it is,
In whose blent air all our compulsions meet,
Are recognised, and robed as destinies.
And that much never can be obsolete,
Since someone will forever be surprising
A hunger in himself to be more serious,
And gravitating with it to this ground,
Which, he once heard, was proper to grow wise in,
If only that so many dead lie round.

Verite1 · 26/07/2022 18:15

@Bonjovispjs and @Lockheart - you clearly both live near me!

Pagwatch · 26/07/2022 18:21

oh, its mercato mayfair isnt it?

I really like it there, the boa buns and pad thai are great. the roof terrace is cute too although quite small. its so nice to have lunch in such a beautiful space.

I like church buildings. i find them beautiful. its nice to have wine at this one without having to confess anything

Completelyovernonsense · 26/07/2022 18:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at poster's request

Completelyovernonsense · 26/07/2022 18:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at poster's request

Namenic · 26/07/2022 18:26

I’m a Christian (CoE) and I think they should deconsecrate and repurpose church buildings that aren’t being used or where it is too expensive to maintain.

thecatsthecats · 26/07/2022 18:30

Christianity was deliberately and manipulative used as propaganda to bring the locals onside, perverting and destroying local customs.

It can get to fuck if it thinks that a taste of its own medicine is too much to bear.

Lancrelady80 · 26/07/2022 18:32

I've seen a couple of old churches turned into casinos ...that does seem wrong.

We also have a very active church which runs an annual fair. The pews are filled with stalls of local independent craftspeople selling eg £300 paintings, £50 handmade bracelets, ceramics etc. The same people in fact who hold stalls at the weekly craft fair in the village hall. This then extends outside where tents and marquees are put up with more similar stalls in the graveyard, between upright gravestones and on top of those grave markets old enough to be flat on the ground.

The whole thing makes me feel horribly, horribly uncomfortable as it just seems so disrespectful. But the vicar is happy as each stall pays a certain amount to be there plus a percentage of takings, which goes towards church upkeep.

longtompot · 26/07/2022 18:35

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this has been mentioned already.

I am not from the area but a quick Google shows this article which states they did try to find other alternatives through the years and no one was interested, and in fact rereading the article it could have had a very unsympathetic restoration if some of the interested parties had got involved www.grosvenor.com/property/property-uk/st-mark-s

This article points out of cost £5million to restore it www.lonelyplanet.com/articles/mercato-mayfair-london

This is the website for the place and I for one think it has been restored and used in a sympathetic way mercatometropolitano.com/mmarketplace/mercato-mayfair/

WhereYouLeftIt · 26/07/2022 18:41

YABVU.

It's a Grade I building that was deconsecrated 50 years ago and has been empty for 30 years. Grade I means that any original parts of the building must be preserved - the owners are not permitted to "de-churchify" the building, neither inside nor outside. It must remain as original as possible.

"Isn't there a Christian organisation that could have ensured this building was preserved for a more suitable use?"
Clearly not. Empty for thirty years - I think that's a clear indicator that no such organisation wanted it, could afford it, or were willing to take on a Grade I money pit. They are very expensive to maintain.

Personally I think the use the building is being put to is entirely suitable. I can only wonder how you'd feel about the similarly-graded Elgin Place Congregational Church in Glasgow that became The Cardinal Folly nightclub!

AnnaMagnani · 26/07/2022 18:48

I very much doubt a Christian charity would have wanted a Grade I listed building as their offices - what a waste of their charitable funds to have to spend them on the upkeep of the building!

I used to work for a charity where the founder had thought it a good idea to buy up a load of listed buildings so we were all based in these totally unsuitable buildings, where we were trying to do the actual job of the charity.

Much donated money was spent fixing roofs, repairing antiquated plumbing, the heating never worked and the fire safety certificate was a nightmare. And this was all before we could do the charitable work we were actually supposed to do.

We used to dream of a nice fire that would burn the place down so we could have a purpose built new building on the insurance money.

MaChienEstUnDick · 26/07/2022 19:45

@vera99 I do love Larkin, the splendid old curmudgeon.

Biker47 · 26/07/2022 19:48

Good, should close more churches and religious places and change them into more useful spaces.

vera99 · 26/07/2022 19:55

@MaChienEstUnDick old skool , very un pc and scared of women but the clarity and perfect brevity of his poetry unmatched.

successstories · 26/07/2022 20:07

onthefencesitter Thank you for taking the time to explain how this matter is viewed in Judaism. I have visited Synagoges mainly as a tourist and had no idea.

For those who are giving examples of religious buildings who suffered a similar fate (Christian or not), I would probably be horrified if I saw them too.

OP posts:
successstories · 26/07/2022 20:12

I've been to beer festivals and gigs in working churches

It's completely different when the congregation itself is using the venue for activities other than worshipping. One may agree with it or not, but it's not the same as this

OP posts:
successstories · 26/07/2022 20:14

As long as they aren't using the statues as stands to hold bowls of soup

Well, you get the impression that this may happen at any time. Somebody tripping and a statue ending up with noodles all over it.Horrific🙁

OP posts:
successstories · 26/07/2022 20:18

I feel like Jesus would appreciate a good food hall

This is quite offensive actually. Make no mistake, this is not a food bank. It's a commercial venture commanding hefty prices.

I'm not sure why some try to depict this initiative as having charity as their main focus. It's clearly doesn't.

OP posts:
successstories · 26/07/2022 20:21

They are very expensive to maintain

I take the point that such a building in this location must be expensive to restore and maintain. It still doesn't feel right.

OP posts:
Bonjovispjs · 26/07/2022 20:26

@Verite1 I guess we must😀I like it there as they have comfy sofas instead of hard chairs.

woodhill · 26/07/2022 20:29

Biker47 · 26/07/2022 19:48

Good, should close more churches and religious places and change them into more useful spaces.

But aren't the religious places useful?

They provide an lifeline to a lot of people

E.g. holiday clubs, toddler group, fellowship, coffee mornings, youth groups, meals, food banks

There are so many lonely people out there

terrywynne · 26/07/2022 20:31

Listed buildings are incredibly expensive and admin heavy to maintain (especially grade I). There are restrictions on what you can do to them, there are extra layers of permissions to be obtained and extra people to consult (Historic England and various societies such as the Vic soc have rights to comment on work to grade 2* and above buildings), and you then have to pay for contractors experienced in conservation work (much more expensive!) and use expensive materials (ie: you are likely to have to use lead guttering not plastic, the correct type of stone, lime mortar not cement etc etc).

C of E churches are not maintained by the central church. The local parish is responsible for upkeep and development - paid for by fundraising and grants (take type to apply for and competitive to get). Some parishes just cannot afford to maintain their listed medieval church with the modern day congregation.

There are a handful of charities that take on care of deconsecrated churches - friends of friendless churches and national churches trust. But there are far more deconsecrated churches/churches on the verge of closure needing care than those charities can support. They can only do so much. The process for closing a c of E church is lengthy and will look at options such as a local trust taking on the church which will then be used for Festival Services only or community groups. But you have to find organisations or individuals prepared to take on all the costs and admin I outlined at the start - and a Christian charity is likely to face criticism if they are putting a large amount of money into maintaining facilities rather than doing their charitable work (parishes already face criticism for funding their building over pastoral work).

And if a private individual takes it on to be a house they are not going to be able to get grants for Heritage Fund etc... So they need to be wealthy! I am also not sure if deconsecrated churches switch to listed building consent (consecrated buildings get a lot of interior permissions via a diocesan process rather than local planning authority), if they do the some local authorities are a nightmare to deal with over listed buildings as a lot have got rid of their specialist conservation officers. I love listed building but would not want to take on responsibility for one.

So then the question is, do you want the building to be taken on by someone who will do the conservation work and bear all the high costs (even if the use is not you preferred option) or do you want it to remain unused and eventually likely reach a point where no one can afford to fund the work needed to get it useable again?

terrywynne · 26/07/2022 20:36

woodhill · 26/07/2022 20:29

But aren't the religious places useful?

They provide an lifeline to a lot of people

E.g. holiday clubs, toddler group, fellowship, coffee mornings, youth groups, meals, food banks

There are so many lonely people out there

Very much depends on the parish! Some do so much work supporting the local community. Others lock the building except for a couple of services a month and do very little. And to be fair to the parish, there is not much some of them can do if there is no local community to support - in a lot of cases it is those churches that close. So many villages which were hugely wealthy in the 15th century so they have a grade 1 church that is too large for the needs of a small 21st century village with a congregation of c 10 (generally elderly) residents on a weekly basis.

Idontgiveagriffindamn · 26/07/2022 20:37

TheFlis12345 · 26/07/2022 10:51

When I was at uni 20 years ago, there was a church that had been turned into a bar!

Was this Leeds?

onthefencesitter · 26/07/2022 20:45

successstories · 26/07/2022 20:07

onthefencesitter Thank you for taking the time to explain how this matter is viewed in Judaism. I have visited Synagoges mainly as a tourist and had no idea.

For those who are giving examples of religious buildings who suffered a similar fate (Christian or not), I would probably be horrified if I saw them too.

why would you be horrified? to me, a synagogue is just a building. We don't have statutes. We have ner tamid (eternal flame; oil lamp) which hangs over the ark which holds the torah scrolls. The torah scrolls are sacred but they are also portable; we even managed to save some of them from the hands of the nazis!

If its sadness at a religious building no longer being used for religious purposes; well synagogues, churches and mosques can close for all sorts of reasons. While it may be linked to reduced religiosity, there are often complex reasons. I can envision that for such an expensive location, it may be due to lack of succession planning. My synagogue is a central london synagogue and the costs are also very high for this reason; hence a lot of planning and budgeting is devoted to conserving resources for the next generation. For example, part of the synagogue building was carved up to build flats and to create an income for the synagogue.