Calling all NHS workers!!

[Nc4post99]

I apologise that this isn’t an aibu.

but I really need some clarity from some ITU workers preferably consultants or anyone who has experience there.

its nearly a year since my dad died in ITU. It was harrowing. A rollercoaster of hope and despair. I’m struggling. This has been made worse by the fact my mother is insistent that they (drs)killed him, and did all in their power to make sure he died. She says they put that line into your arm and after that you’re a goner, apparently they did it to my grandmother too. I’ve told her this is nonsense. But it’s clearly psychologically impacting me as I’m having regular nightmares.

please, is this a thing? Do you have any clue what she’s talking about? I can go into detail with what happened, it’s massively outing but I don’t care, if that helps.

(im On a wait list for grief counselling btw)

I’m wondering if she’s talking about a syringe driver ? Obviously this is not put in to “ kill people “ but she may associate this device with end of life care/ death . And her grief is muddying her clarity ?

OP - I don’t work for the NHS but of course the staff aren’t euthanising patients.
Have you asked for his hospital records or spoken to the staff involved in his care. Having someone sit with you and go through the medical records might help you, but if you mum has convinced herself (and I have a mother who is like that) there’s no way she’ll accept facts.
I hope the bereavement counselling helps

Did he have a diary written for him during his time in ITU? Many trusts also offer a debrief where someone goes through the medical notes and can answer questions etc. Generally ITU is a rollercoaster of hope and having it snatched away only to then have hopes raised again- people in there are extremely poorly and almost certainly only being kept alive with medical intervention which sometimes works and sadly sometimes doesn't. I'd recommend getting in touch with the hospital, perhaps the bereavement office, who might be able to suggest some positive steps forward and how to escalate if necessary.

Sorry for your loss.

It's absolutely not a thing.

Our ITU offers psychological support to survivors and relatives. Can you contact their outreach team? Have you got his notes (ours only gives the diary to surviving patients) . Most patients had various wires and tubes but many do not die.

A friend suggested that this is what they did to my mum while she was in a hospice with cancer. Basically killed her with a morphine overdose. It was a very insensitive and upsetting comment.

I can’t request anything as I’m not his next of kin unfortunately.

for a fact there was definite negligence in his care, he had chronic organ failure (lungs and kidney) and he kept getting v poorly and as soon as he was stabilised they’d release him, no community care and no management plan (which I know goes against nice guidelines) I’d beg my mother to insist to the dr that he had one. I used to call the GP surgery but no one would talk to me or anything due to not being next of kin.

i don’t think a diary took place, he had detailed records on yellow paper.

what is a syringe driver?

They promised they’d offer it, and I’ve called and called and heard nothing back. At all

@Yumyumcakes nc fail?

A syringe driver is a device that gives continuous doses of medication over 24 hours, often used in end of life care to deliver symptom control for pain , nausea , agitation etc . They are very commonly used .

I suspect she means a syringe driver. Often once that’s in place, the end comes quicker.

they absolutely did not euthanise your father.

They are usually placed in legs or abdomen but sometimes top of arm is used .

Haha! Got me, trying not to out myself and end up outing myself. Nice one me!

How and why do they make the end come quicker?

if it wasn’t used could he have been saved?

im not medical at all so I don’t know and it’s my worse nightmare that if I’d advocated harder or more I could have saved him

A syringe driver is used at end is stage care for terminal patients who are experiencing/are likely to experience significant pain. The driver contains powerful pain relief that is self administered by the patient to make sure they are comfortable. It is programmed so that they cannot overdose. It will not have contributed to the death of your loved one but will have made sure that they were as comfortable as possible.

I am sorry about your dad. I'm not NHS but both my dad and mum (20 years apart) had syringe drivers. They were both given pain medication, I think morphine in both cases. The syringe is basically given by an automatic driver, a battery operated pump which is inserted into the patient and left there. It saves someone in terrible pain having to wait for an overworked nurse to come and administer. A measured dose is given at a measured time.

The thing is that they are often, but not always, given at the point where the person is near death so can't call for more medication, as most of us who may be in hospital for operations or something, can. So many people see them as something associated with 'quickening the process'. Where in actuality it's keeping the person as pain free as possible.

OP I don't think PP meant a syringe driver "makes" the end come quicker, but moreso that when it gets to the stage of needing one someone is usually already nearing the end of their life. The syringe driver helps to ease the pain and agitation they may be suffering at that stage.

I am sorry for your loss. I think your mother's grief may be clouding her thoughts.

If you contact the Medical Examiner’s office in the hospital they should be able to liaise with the doctors and explain everything, and answer your questions.

OP I am so sorry that you are going through so much pain.
If someone is in ITU they are extremely ill and would die without the intensive support offered, particularly respiratory (assisted breathing).
It is a place for the very sick only with beds in constant demand so as soon as a patient is stable enough to be moved to another area such as a heart ward, they will be.
Syringe drivers provide a steady dose of medication including sedation and pain relief.
Hence their use in end of life care.
However that does not mean your Dad was getting end of life (palliative) care, not in ITU.
If there had been a decision that there was no more to be done for him then he would have been moved to a ward that could provide palliative care.
People end up in ITU because they would die otherwise, this means that sometimes they are so ill they do not survive for many months afterwards, but they do get some extra time due to the intensive care they receive.
(Of course people do die in ITU due to the condition they are admitted with, but the very best is done for them if there is any, even a tiny, chance of survival).

Hi, I have worked a few shifts in ITU and the first thing I learnt was that they pretty much immediately get a central line in. This allows for ease of administering drugs and taking blood samples. The number of times they take bloods in a day is very high so they don't want to be putting needles in every time, the patient would soon stop giving blood and be covered in bruises. It also gives them more accurate observations. Administering drugs via IV generally works quicker and if they're on a slow infusion syringe drivers are used which is just a bigger syringe that needs to be administered slowly over time. In ITU there are obviously very poorly patients and things can change very rapidly so it makes the process easier and quicker for all.

I hope this helps slightly however suspect not a lot will change her mind unfortunately. The poor family having to go through that.

Sorry, meant YOUR poor family having to go through that

A syringe driver is more often than not put up at the end of life. It will administer drugs for pain- morphine, agitation - midazolam sickness/nausea - haloperidol and hyoscine to reduce secretions at the very end.
Its a more effective way of managing a patients pain as the drug supply is constant. It can be topped up with additional injections of these drugs.
Families often they think they hasten the end. In truth someone on a driver may pass away sooner than someone who is not, this is due to the fact that once the driver starts they are so sedated and comfortable that they are not conscious enough to eat or drink again. I have seen deaths without and deaths with and would choose one for myself when the time comes. I hope that has helped a bit x

I just came in to say what @Chardonnay73 said.

My mum was a geriatric nurse and told us many times that she would hope the nurses at her end of life would show compassion with administering those drugs such as morphine which make the end easier for the dying person. She was on a syringe driver at the end, and it helped a lot knowing she was not in pain.

Your mum is understandably grief stricken, but I’m sure she would not have wanted your Dad to suffer any more than he already had. Doctors perform miracles these days but sadly they can’t save everyone.

im sorry for your loss.

It sounds like your father was released compassionately to be allowed to die at home in all honesty. Most people would rather that than hooked up in hospital.

The night my own father died, from cancer, he was very agitated. We called in the home hospice doctor, who said he could give him extra morphine, but that due to the fact it can supress breathing, the end would come sooner than than it would otherwise. All we wanted for him was as peaceful a passing as possible.

He didn’t die at home, he died in icu that’s the point