Anyone think the UK is a joke when it comes to not paying child maintenance?

[SleepDreamThinkHuge]

You hear a lot of stories especially in the UK where courts are not that strict on individuals who are no longer together to pay maintenance for their child. Unlike the UK, USA is much more stricter and it is much harder to avoid paying child maintenance.

Anyone think the rules need to be a lot stricter in the UK? How can it be better enforced in the UK and what is the minimum amount a month you think someone should pay for maintenance assuming someone is on around £1.5k-£2k after tax a month.

If this were true there wouldn’t be threads upon threads about maintenance

Of course, just as good marriages don't exist because there are threads upon threads about bad ones. And not one single nice mother in law, just bad ones. And no good weddings, no nice normal friends.

People don't post about their amicable co parenting relationships because they have no need to. It doesn't mean they don't exist.

It is you who is claiming these adults don’t exist. Parents who can co-parent and share expenses in a way that works for them are very unlikely to resort to CMS. I don’t think all parents are incapable of co-parenting and putting their children first I do however think there are a sizeable number who can’t for whatever reason and it’s those that we should be focusing on. Like I said you are being disingenuous and trying to derail the thread, in fact possibly successfully now.

Co parenting exists alright, however it's a minority.

Please stop lying about my intentions.

You did deny their existence. I am not denying the existence of anything. I'm suggesting it is possible.

I'd be interested to know @Hatsoff5 how you know it's the minority?

It is true that you've been derailing the thread for days. This was a thread about a broken system and non paying nrps. You have made it all about unreasonable RPs who control contact and nrps who are having a hard time. Whattabouttery at its finest. Please do start a thread about those things by all means but it's v irritating when people are trying to discuss and share experiences of what the thread is about and answer the ops question and it gets hijacked by 'but not all nrps...' that's fine, we get it.

Listen if anyone is lying it is you. I can’t lie about your intentions in any case, I don’t know your intentions but I can only tell you what it looks like to an outsider. If your intention isn’t what I’ve said maybe you need to go back and think why I and others are challenging you? The thread was about how maintenance and how NRP get out of supporting their children, to tell the mothers on this thread “50/50 is better then no maintenance is due” is exactly helpful. If those ex’s were interested/capable parents they wouldn’t be withholding maintenance from their child. If 50/50 was the panacea you think it is why have courts moved away from that being the baseline?

I also never said no parents co parent well. I just said that your plan lends itself to enabling abuse to continue and some (I personally think the majority but don’t have facts and figures) parents are too caught up in the getting one over their ex to put the children first.

No, I haven't. And actually no, you don't seem to get it at all.

Ive agreed about non payment of maintenance, I've given ideas, I've disagreed with other ideas that are designed to punish everyone and that's apparently why I'm derailing.

You want a better system but have no actual idea what that would look like other than "more money please". Its unrealistic and won't happen.

I didn't realise to comment on a thread we had to agree with every idea no matter how ridiculous it was.

I've also been told I'm on benefits, that I don't like benefits for single mums, that I'm lying about not spending £100 a week on my child - that's derailing and irrelevant. Its also not me that's had comments deleted - again derailing.

I think I'll leave it there as this thread has obviously been designed as some sort of bizarre echo chamber where were only allowed to say "awww Hun all ex husband's are shits he should deffo pay you more xxxxx"

You literally said it wasn't true. Its there in black and white. You can backtrack all you like but that's quite literally what you said.

I am not lying. You've accused me of lying several times with absolutely no basis, and to be honest it's fucking rude. I've no reason to lie about my income, benefits, anything else. I've also been on the recieving end of a shit NRP who paid a pittance. However I still don't agree that making all the decisions and demanding money is neccesarily what is best for the child.

I'm not going to reply to you any more.

I agree that the system isn't working.

I have a friend who now has a 3yo daughter. She is still with the child's father although not living together FT (they see each other Fri-Mon) nor married. He earns six figures working for the police (often on TV) and boasts about his multi million pound property portfolio, drives a new BMW etc. My friend (a teacher) went back to work two days a week after mat leave and claims UC. Since the pandemic she has lived with her parents and rents her flat out (not declared). He pays nothing in CM (she says she 'likes to be independent') but he does splash the cash at weekends- designer clothes, holidays abroad etc. I find it very difficult to join in the 'isn't he wonderful', 'look what he's bought us now'. I assume my friend simply hasn't declared who the father is and/or there is a delay in CMS getting him to pay towards the upkeep of his child. She doesn't see a problem with this - says it is allowed.

He is very savvy, has been married and had a child previously - he was very annoyed at having to pay contributions (minimal though they were) towards his oldest childs' upkeep. He is very financially aware for example putting properties in the name of his brother for a period and then switching them back when no longer under scrutiny (his ex wife made complaints previously incl. to his employer but nothing happened). His family have accountants and lawyers on retainer.

Personally I feel they are abusing the system, depriving those who really need the help from getting it but they seem to get away with it/don't have any issues. Since this all came to light I have tried to keep my distance - it has changed how I see her which is a shame . I know that she will end up with a lovely lifestyle but personally I don't think I could trust a man who has problems providing for his own children (she doesn't see it like that at all- why should he pay for the boring stuff, it is all allowed and she is so different from a benefits cheat...).

I do wonder why CMS and the benefits agency are so slow/ apparently reluctant to act on such cases - perhaps they just go after the low hanging fruit and leave the more complicated cases alone?

Don’t agree with someone? Accuse them of lying. It gets tedious, and the discussion withers. Of course there are good examples of responsible co parenting, but of all the separated families I’ve known they’re not the norm. Here’s a good one.

My DSIL was divorced with two children when he met DD. They were old enough to make choices, one stayed in the family home with dad, one moved to mum’s new home, five minutes away that dad bought for her. Dad was a good earner, mum worked part time, but showed no interest in improving her capacity to earn more, even though the children were teenagers. Dad has supported them well financially (way above CMS rates) and in other ways, as he would have done if they’d all remained together.

The children stayed in their local school, and had access to both parents, who were civil enough to attend parents’ evenings and eventually graduations with no interference from new partners. The children have close relationships with both parents, and with my DD. Mainly because all the adults put the children’s needs first and behaved like grown ups. Sadly, other friends have had less positive experiences, (usually because of arsehole fathers) like many of the posters here.

Again, I haven't said everyone is capable of it. I do however think if people can stop being twats for the sake of their children, it is better for their child. I haven't said everyone can. But realistically, that's what people should do isn't it, rather than being arseholes to their kids.

Quote the post where I said it wasn’t true. Not a sound bite the whole post including what you said that prompted my response.

I think you are going to quote the post where I said “If this were true there wouldn’t be threads upon threads about maintenance” which was in response to you saying “Lots of people of both sexes manage this and amicably co parent and put their kids first.”

So unless comprehension isn’t your strong point I never said they didn’t exist but challenged your point that ‘lots’ (subjective) manage it.

Fine - you don't think it's lots. You have no evidence to back that up other than you have a shit ex and hate men.

Please do not reply to me again with your vile attitude.

All MN is not the whole world. An abundance of threads on Mumsnet is not evidence that lots of people don't manage to put their children first.

Perhaps numbers aren't your strong point, or you're just being goady and horrible. Hth.

As I have quoted upthread, a simple number is the millions owed in unpaid maintenance and the scandal is that this "debt" which is owed to child is allowed to wiped out by a government agency. Its not owed to them, so they should (IMHO) pay the RP the outstanding amount (or an agreed minimum if there is no calculation available) and go after the NRP. @Catfordthefifth you said I haven't given suggestions and just want more money. Literally if you go back to page 1 you will find my very simple suggestions laid out, in a numbered list. At no point in my life ever have I used the phrase "aww Hun" and I have never said all exes are shits. You are of course allowed to disagree if you think the system isn't broken - I don't think you do disagree on that, but constantly banging on about how not all NRPs are shit is irrelevant to the discussion of how to deal with those who are.

Oh and if you want more representative figures, have a look at the Gingerbread website.

It is the same in every country, not only the uk.

Its like you've ignored everything I've said and created your own narrative. I have quite literally said I agree the system is shit and needs changing. Several times. The unpaid CMS is awful, but clearly doesn't take into account those who do not need to use it. Again just to clarify I AGREE THE SYSTEM NEEDS TO CHANGE AND BE MADE BETTER.

I know. I know you think that. Hooray. So why are you on here talking about those who are fine and dandy? It's irrelevant. And the irony of me ignoring what you've said when you accused me just now of having no suggestions when I literally listed them on P1. Why don't you have a look at what I said back on the 11th and tell me what you think of those suggestions to fix this broken system and we can actually talk about the OPs question.

Vile attitude? Because I want the best for the children involved? I don’t hate men, nor do I hate women and like I said before I have bought gender into the discussion. I want the child/ren centred, that the best be sought for them who have little to no choices in things that are decided for them not the adults.

You are certainly projecting a lot, you’ve been the person to call names and to question someone’s intelligence. Whereas most people on this thread have challenged what you think are best and given reasons for why they don’t think it will work. Other PP have given suggestions that are more workable, but you have decided that won’t work as you don’t spend £100 on your child a week. A solution needs to be sought that stops the majority of children missing out on a necessities because there is only one parent that has the majority responsibility for them.

Forcing 50/50 on a set of parents because that’s what you’ve decided is ideal is open to abuse and doesn’t centre the child. Forcing both parents to contribute to childcare costs is actually a solution, it would be best that parents can decide together what nursery/childminder/nanny the children use but the choice should centre the child, that isn’t to say the RP should be able to choose the most expensive option or the NRP can choose the least expensive option.

While budget should be taken into account things like cost of travel, how far the child is being forced to travel every morning, is this choice in the best interests of the child.

Those soft decisions are really hard to legislate for and to be really honest I don’t know how you fix it so the child/ren are centred but I do know that spouting 50/50 isn’t a panacea.

Threads about unpaid maintenance always get derailed.

Its always “but what about the RP’s on benefits who get £72693927 in maintenance as well - that’s not fair” or “well, if people have children with fuckwits what do they expect?” or “my ex/DP’s ex just spends it all on hair/nails so it’s being saved in an account for the children as it’s their money not ex’s” or “well, I/OH manage to deal with maintenance and their ex fine so I don’t see why other people can’t”

Every single time. There is always a diversion.

The actual issue ends up being ignored. Just as it is in the pub or the workplace or general society. It’s completely acceptable to not bother paying purely and simply because there is no consequence. People don’t care enough to say anything so it doesn’t impact the non-payer’s life.

When it does, they pay.

Sorry you questioned my comprehension didn't you? Did you forget that?

I haven't said to force 50/50. Coukd you point out where I did?

You're vile attitude is because you're rude and condescending. I haven't said anything about YOU not putting children first at all. You've said that to me several times albeit you don't actually need to bevause I actually agree.

I haven't decided things won't work because I don't spend x amount. I've suggested it's unrealistic because many people simply don't earn enough and used myself as an example which you then used against me and accused me of being reliant on the state and lying.
I haven't once suggested 50/50 will work for everyone, again, if you'd like to quote where I have, be my guest.

You keep trying to say I've said x y and z when I clearly just haven't at all.

Maybe I should start a new thread that says in big capitals in the OP that this is ONLY about addressing the inequities of those do not pay and that whattabouttery is not allowed. Just factually based, sensible suggestions about how to close loopholes and chase non payers. Issues about if the % is right, whether some NRPs are targeted unfairly or some RPs spending it on gin and / or with-holding contact can be in a different thread.

@ChiselandBits I've already agreed with your ideas I think, apols If I haven't but didn't you say closing loopholes for self employed? Or was that someone else? Yes I wholeheartedly agree with that. And as you mentioned before I think making it a debt and the state paying and the NRP paying back could absolutely work if the government could be arsed to do something about it!

I'm not saying it shouldn't change, at all. All I've disagreed with is that people seem to think because they spend x amount that should be the minimum, completely ignoring that actually a huge proprotion of the country don't earn enough to support it. And I've disagree with the RP being default in charge and presenting a bill from the other parent because I don't necessarily agree it's on the best interest of the child.

I've been made out to be some benefit bashing single mother hating thick twat whos kids will amount to nothing, none of which is actually the case whatsoever. I simply think a lot of people cannot afford some of the other suggestions (not yours) bevajse people don't earn enough. And yes I have defended the good NRPs because some of the suggestions, note some not all, would penalise all NRPs which doesn't seem fair to me. I don't know how much more I can clarify.

Can I just say I haven't made a single comment about what RPs spend maintenance on

ive literally just agreed with you and you're still making digs about things I've not even said!