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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how much you earn?

46 replies

sunshineq · 11/07/2022 12:05

I'm a student midwife, so live off student loans and grants. Live alone with 3 year old DS. Hey about 20k per year and really struggling. When I qualify it won't be much more, potentially even worse off.

Love midwifery but wish it had higher earning potential. I considered law but decided against it.

Does anyone have any suggestions of what I could do with my degree or routes I could take for higher earning potential? I'd even consider self employment or starting up a business.

OP posts:
Contract · 11/07/2022 12:27

I'm currently a teacher - I earn £25,714 per year right now. I have recently received a job offer to go into law - they pay £50,000-£55,000 to train and then just over £100,000 once qualified.

To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), starting salary for a midwife is fairly similar to for a teacher and so are the standard pension contributions. Realistically, you'll be worse off once you're no longer a student - it was the same when I qualified as a teacher. Whilst you're a student, everything is income tax and national insurance free, plus council tax exemption and the childcare grants - and you don't need to contribute to a pension. After tax, national insurance, student loans and pension, I'm left with about £1,500pcm and I assume you'll have a similar amount - that's £2,000 less per year than you get now but will have to cover council tax and childcare too.

With highly paid jobs in law, you can't go in on a whim - it takes years. And you'd have to explain the shift from midwifery to law, which is a big shift...having said that, firms that specialise in personal injury or medical negligence would really benefit from expertise like that (perhaps look at places like Irwin Mitchell or Fieldfisher).

In terms of other options that pay well, a lot of nurses do beauty therapy self-employed and make a decent income from that (things like botox and fillers because of good experience with needles). You could look at becoming some kind of doula or private midwife - often that will pay better than NHS midwifery. There are the standard highly paid jobs in investment banking or consultancy but, as with law, you'd need to show some kind of cross-over in motivation and skill set with your current experience. If you want to buy yourself a year, look into teacher training - if you have the right A Levels then you can get a very hefty bursary, childcare covers, grants from the university/school, plus student loans/grants and your salary would be about £40,000 take-home - but obviously, that's just for one year and then the income crashes down if you actually start teaching.

sunshineq · 11/07/2022 12:40

Contract · 11/07/2022 12:27

I'm currently a teacher - I earn £25,714 per year right now. I have recently received a job offer to go into law - they pay £50,000-£55,000 to train and then just over £100,000 once qualified.

To my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), starting salary for a midwife is fairly similar to for a teacher and so are the standard pension contributions. Realistically, you'll be worse off once you're no longer a student - it was the same when I qualified as a teacher. Whilst you're a student, everything is income tax and national insurance free, plus council tax exemption and the childcare grants - and you don't need to contribute to a pension. After tax, national insurance, student loans and pension, I'm left with about £1,500pcm and I assume you'll have a similar amount - that's £2,000 less per year than you get now but will have to cover council tax and childcare too.

With highly paid jobs in law, you can't go in on a whim - it takes years. And you'd have to explain the shift from midwifery to law, which is a big shift...having said that, firms that specialise in personal injury or medical negligence would really benefit from expertise like that (perhaps look at places like Irwin Mitchell or Fieldfisher).

In terms of other options that pay well, a lot of nurses do beauty therapy self-employed and make a decent income from that (things like botox and fillers because of good experience with needles). You could look at becoming some kind of doula or private midwife - often that will pay better than NHS midwifery. There are the standard highly paid jobs in investment banking or consultancy but, as with law, you'd need to show some kind of cross-over in motivation and skill set with your current experience. If you want to buy yourself a year, look into teacher training - if you have the right A Levels then you can get a very hefty bursary, childcare covers, grants from the university/school, plus student loans/grants and your salary would be about £40,000 take-home - but obviously, that's just for one year and then the income crashes down if you actually start teaching.

Thank you so much for such a detailed response. I have considered Botox/fillers but the market is becoming so saturated, I'm worried what it will be like by the time I am qualified.

Could you tell me more about your job offer to go into law?

Did they have many questions about the choice in career change?

Thank you again.

OP posts:
W1ldFlowerGarden · 11/07/2022 12:47

Do you receive child maintenance from the father (assuming you are the mother)

Surely you will earn more when qualified ?

I work in a male dominated technical industry & that seems to pay well

sunshineq · 11/07/2022 12:51

Do you receive child maintenance from the father (assuming you are the mother)

I do, but it doesn't cover much.

Surely you will earn more when qualified ?

I will earn more, but after tax, national insurance, council tax etc. (non of which I pay now). And paying for childcare in full, which I also do not do now. I will actually be worse off.

OP posts:
DamnUserName21 · 11/07/2022 12:52

Hi OP,

If you stay in Midwifery and work for the NHS, you'll start 25655 FTE outside of London.

Have you applied for UC? If not, do so. You may not get much as a student (they will factor in your grants/loans) but you will likely get more when employed, especially if you rent.

benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/survey/1/aa10a7e5-28a2-4b58-a7df-c460c1b95a09

KingofLoss · 11/07/2022 12:52

I'm surprised you haven't looked into the salary of a midwife!

As a newly qualified midwife you'll be on £25k, which is quite a bit more than you're on now. Within four years you'll be on £31k, if you stay as a band 5. More if you progress.

How would you be at risk of earning less than you're on now? Don't buy into the headlines about terribly paid NHS staff, the salary NHS staff attract is publicised online and freely available for anyone to peruse.

I say that as NHS staff. It's a tough job but it's far from poorly paid.

sunshineq · 11/07/2022 12:55

Have you applied for UC?

Thank you for responding. I am only entitled to about £100 UC per month, which I do claim.

OP posts:
lancsgirl85 · 11/07/2022 12:56

How would you be at risk of earning less than you're on now?

OP has clarified that she doesn't currently pay tax, NI, council tax or FT childcare. All of these things will eat into her higher salary when she's qualified.

sunshineq · 11/07/2022 12:57

*I'm surprised you haven't looked into the salary of a midwife!

As a newly qualified midwife you'll be on £25k, which is quite a bit more than you're on now. Within four years you'll be on £31k, if you stay as a band 5. More if you progress.

How would you be at risk of earning less than you're on now?*

I have looked into it. I get about 22.5k per year at the moment. I currently don't pay council tax, national insurance or income tax and I get my travel to and work reimbursed and the majority of my childcare paid for. I won't be much better off at all, probably worse off. Especially with the cost of living rising like it is.

OP posts:
aniceuniqueusername · 11/07/2022 12:58

Could you be a private doula on the side?

W1ldFlowerGarden · 11/07/2022 13:05

We all pay tax, NI, council tax, transport & other costs for those that earn over a certain amount

Will you be paying NHS pension too once qualifyied ?

Can you do another job on the side like paid child minding on your off shift time ? Or some extra midwifery shifts

Nap1983 · 11/07/2022 13:11

I’m a band 5 nurse. 36hrs a week. Second increment so about 26k. I walk out with either just over or just under depending on shifts 2k per month. Tax & pension are a big hit. But no student loan payback as I’m In Scotland. Could I live on it without my husbands salary…. No.

Battybonkers · 11/07/2022 13:12

Is private/ locuming an option? If it’s anything like speech therapy/ occupational therapy you can earn quite a bit more in the private sector or as a locum. You could work 4 days NHS and then 1 day private work whilst you build up a private client base and get your newly qualified competencies signed off….

MatildaTheCat · 11/07/2022 13:15

I would encourage you to complete your degree and get some solid experience post qualification if you enjoy the role. If you leave without practicing it won’t be useful in another setting such as law as suggested by PP.

To reduce on childcare in the future you could look at health visiting (I think minimum band 6/7). After I was qualified a few years I worked in the antenatal clinic which was great around school hours but didn’t attract any unsocial hours payment (which can make a big difference to your monthly salary).

A good and ambitious midwife can work up to a band 7 wishing around 5 years but it does carry a lot of responsibility.

Other former colleagues have moved into public sector roles, industry and senior management but all were ambitious and also did complete masters on top of their original qualifications.

alphapie · 11/07/2022 13:16

Friends who are midwives went into HV as it was better paid and they were offered a cash incentive to move over, they also have a side hassle, private work at weekends and evenings.

I'm surprised the low earning potential wasn't a factor in choosing which degree to go for, it's quite well known how poorly public service staff are paid

Contract · 11/07/2022 13:32

sunshineq · 11/07/2022 12:40

Thank you so much for such a detailed response. I have considered Botox/fillers but the market is becoming so saturated, I'm worried what it will be like by the time I am qualified.

Could you tell me more about your job offer to go into law?

Did they have many questions about the choice in career change?

Thank you again.

So, for law, they've just changed up the qualification system to become a solicitor so it was a bit different because I did a lot through the old route but essentially, under the new route you'd do a PGDL (a one year course, funded by a law firm and they'd give you a maintenance grant to live on of around £12,500) and then you'd do another one year course called the SQE (also funded by a law firm with a maintenance grant - some of these are as high as £17,000 now).

To make any kind of decent money, you'd probably need to be in London (but potentially in Bristol or Manchester depending on your aspirations). My firm are headquartered in London. There are a few different types of firm. There are Magic Circle firms - the most prestigious but don't pay the most (around £50,000 training and just above £100,000 once qualified). Silver Circle are just "below" Magic Circle but, in reality, the calibre of work and pay are probably on par - but I don't have much experience with them to know for sure. US firms pay more on qualification (I think one just announced they're increasing it to £170,000) but you'll never leave the office. There are smaller, nicher, boutique firms. Have a look at Chambers Student Guide and there's loads more information on there.

Applications happen in annual cycles starting in August and ending in July - every firm has a different process. Some open later or close earlier - some firms don't take applications beyond the autumn so look at the specific dates for the firms you want. I applied for four years running in order to secure my job offer and that's pretty average - a close friend just got an offer on his seventh cycle. There are two application route options: Vacation Scheme or Direct Training Contract. Your odds are better on Vacation Schemes - this is where you apply to do a work experience with a law firm for a couple of weeks and then they hire the people they like the most. Direct Training Contract applications are only offered by some firms - this is where you apply directly for the two year qualification programme. In general, the applications are very similar.

In my experience applications consist of a written application form - these are LONG. You put in all your academics (every GCSE, A Level and degree modules), all your work experience, then they have essay questions too - they generally want to know your motivation for law here. They'll also want to test your commercial awareness and your understanding of how a law firm works as a business. It's very rare to see an application that's just a CV and cover letter. You're not expected to have any knowledge of the law itself but you're definitely expected to show a genuine passion for it. Many firms then do psychometric testing, like a Watson Glaser and many have developed their own bespoke psychometric tests. These vary from firm to firm - some look at personality, some look at logic, some are verbal reasoning, some are situational judgement tests... it just depends what the firm is looking for. Then some firms offer phone or video interviews - some of these are even where a question pops up on your screen and you record an answer video and that gets sent to the firm. After that, firms tend to do an assessment centre day. On that day, you'll often do different kinds of exercises - a written exercise (it could be case study or drafting or any number of other things), a group exercise (perhaps a negotiation etc), a presentation of some kind (in my experience, these vary the most - I've had firms ask me to present on anything from a topic of my own choice through to how Coca Cola need to adapt to the modern market through to how law firms can retain talent). Then there'll be an interview. Interviews, at this stage, tend to focus on motivations, strengths and commercial awareness. So, you'll be asked questions like "why law", "why this firm", "why did you study midwifery", "where do you see yourself in five years time" etc, then "tell me about a time you demonstrated team work/problem solving/working under pressure" or "tell me about a time you had to deliver bad news/work with a difficult colleague/balance priorities" etc, then it'll be testing commercial awareness - different firms test it differently. Some will ask broader questions like "tell me about a recent news story that caught your attention" and others will ask more specific questions like "was Trump justified in imposing trade tariffs on China and why?". If you get through that interview, you tend to be offered a vacation scheme.

Vacation Schemes are very intense. You work for the firm, doing actual work, plus social events and presentations and things. You'll be assessed by the firm on the work you produce but also how you get on with people in the office, how friendly you are, whether you're a good fit etc. Some firms will get you to do assessed presentations, written exercises or group exercises on the vacation scheme too. Almost always, there will be a final interview at the end of the vacation scheme. This may cover any of the things from earlier assessments but also looks at your personality "what do you do at the weekend" or "what annoys you", and your situational ethics "you are working on a project with a client. The client sends an email to your team berating your poor attention to detail. You notice that it was the client who made the mistake. What do you do?" etc. If you perform well on this - you'll get an offer to do a training contract.

Applications are INTENSE. They take a long, long, long time and a lot of work. There's no point putting in a half-arsed application for a firm - they reject stupid numbers of people. There's a roughly 2% success rate - but this varies from firm to firm.

Did they have many questions about the choice in career change?

Loads. Law loses a lot of people early on - I read somewhere recently that almost 60% of female lawyers in the city leave within five years. It costs firms a lot of money to train lawyers so they don't want to lose them. For this reason, there's a lot of emphasis in the process on ensuring you're committed to a career in law. It's not just about telling them that when they ask you on the application form - it's about showing you've engaged with the law, sought work experience, can explain why it interests you etc. This was pretty easy for me to explain because I only became a teacher because I didn't get a job as a lawyer and needed to work whilst doing more application cycles. I had work experience in law firms, had a master's in law already, and had attended a million different events and open days.

Could you tell me more about your job offer to go into law?

My job offer is from a large, London-headquartered, commercial city firm. They have offices across the world. My offer requires me to complete a one year course (the SQE) which is funded by the firm and they pay me a grant for living costs too. Assuming I pass that, I'll join the firm and do four six-month "seats" - which means spending six months in four different departments. One of those seats will be a secondment, which means either going abroad or working for client. Over those two years, that's when the pay is £50,000-£55,000. If that all goes to plan, I'll choose my favourite seat and that's where I'll apply to qualify. As long as the firm has space in that department and they liked me, I'll qualify there and the salary increases to just over £100,000 plus bonus.

My training contract is pretty standard but some firms do vary. Dechert have six four-month seats and Freshfields have eight three-month seats. Some firms allow you to work across departments for the whole two years (I think Fried Frank do this but I never applied to them so can't be sure).

Sorry this was so long - let me know if you have any more questions. There's loads of information available online on places like Chambers Student Guide and Legal Cheek, as well as forums like The Corporate Law Academy.

lawandgin · 11/07/2022 13:47

@Contract while your post was no doubt well intentioned, as a lawyer who trained at a magic circle firm, I struggle to see how OP would make this work with childcare. Also, the bursaries and grants only really tend to be paid by the big firms who will expect you to be in the office for a minimum of 12 hours a day. The more manageable hours are at smaller firms, which do not tend to pay course fees or give grants. A lot do not even offer training contracts. OP, during my training I had to work evenings, nights, weekends, Bank Holidays and it is not unheard of for firms to request you cancel a pre-booked holiday if they need you. They'll cover the cost, because they have an outrageous amount of money to throw around. Not sure how you put a price on the disappointment though, ha. I was always terrified in the run up to a holiday that it would be cancelled. First World problem I know, but not a fun way to live. As a trainee you are a resource, not a person. I think that's pretty incompatible with a child TBH.

kirinm · 11/07/2022 14:08

I work in a very large global law firm and they won't fund the SQE (and a lot of the legal industry were anti-SQE) - they prefer the usual TC route so you'd be looking at the GDL, LPC and TC. The previous poster sounds like she's done some law prior to becoming a teacher so is obviously missing some steps. Law is a long and expensive process with absolutely zero guarantees. I did my degree, LPC and training contract when I was a single mum and it was really difficult. Not impossible but I was in a huge amount of debt and it has taken a really long time to pay off. You won't earn £100k in most firms and certainly not as a newly qualified solicitor.

I do not doubt for a second that midwifery is a stressful and all consuming job. I am not sure how you'd manage to work and train in an alternative career at the same time.

I am quite a dissenting voice when it comes to careers in law because of how long and expensive the process is (and often not as rewarding as people will lead you to believe).

Contract · 11/07/2022 14:09

lawandgin · 11/07/2022 13:47

@Contract while your post was no doubt well intentioned, as a lawyer who trained at a magic circle firm, I struggle to see how OP would make this work with childcare. Also, the bursaries and grants only really tend to be paid by the big firms who will expect you to be in the office for a minimum of 12 hours a day. The more manageable hours are at smaller firms, which do not tend to pay course fees or give grants. A lot do not even offer training contracts. OP, during my training I had to work evenings, nights, weekends, Bank Holidays and it is not unheard of for firms to request you cancel a pre-booked holiday if they need you. They'll cover the cost, because they have an outrageous amount of money to throw around. Not sure how you put a price on the disappointment though, ha. I was always terrified in the run up to a holiday that it would be cancelled. First World problem I know, but not a fun way to live. As a trainee you are a resource, not a person. I think that's pretty incompatible with a child TBH.

I think that definitely used to be true but the industry has changed a lot. I know that my firm have a current trainee with young twins and I know another person who trained at the firm with a child too. Most firms have 40%-60% WFH, many firms allow you to collect from childcare, get children to bed and then continue working after they're asleep etc.

It all ties back in to all those women who leave the law within five years and that firms are desperate to keep them. There's a huge salary war going on due to a lack of solicitors in the city and firms have realised that not being conducive to family life is a major contributor to that - and it's costing them money and clients.

Plenty of lawyers at top firms have children and make it work. The hours are long and not easy, of course. But it's not undoable the industry definitely isn't what it used to be - it's certainly not like investment banking.

CoastalWave · 11/07/2022 14:14

Well that's put me right off going into Law.

Contract · 11/07/2022 14:15

kirinm · 11/07/2022 14:08

I work in a very large global law firm and they won't fund the SQE (and a lot of the legal industry were anti-SQE) - they prefer the usual TC route so you'd be looking at the GDL, LPC and TC. The previous poster sounds like she's done some law prior to becoming a teacher so is obviously missing some steps. Law is a long and expensive process with absolutely zero guarantees. I did my degree, LPC and training contract when I was a single mum and it was really difficult. Not impossible but I was in a huge amount of debt and it has taken a really long time to pay off. You won't earn £100k in most firms and certainly not as a newly qualified solicitor.

I do not doubt for a second that midwifery is a stressful and all consuming job. I am not sure how you'd manage to work and train in an alternative career at the same time.

I am quite a dissenting voice when it comes to careers in law because of how long and expensive the process is (and often not as rewarding as people will lead you to believe).

Respectfully, OP can't do the GDL, LPC and TC route. Anyone who didn't confirm their law degree by last September has to go through the SQE rather than the LPC.

"You can only qualify through this route [the LPC route] if you meet our transitional requirements. If you do not meet these, you will need to qualify under the SQE."

"to anyone who completes, starts, accepts an offer of a place or pays a non-refundable deposit by 21 September 2021 (inclusive)"

www.sra.org.uk/become-solicitor/legal-practice-course-route/transitional-arrangements/

I'm not sure how your firm intends to evade the SRA requirements to be completely honest.

kirinm · 11/07/2022 14:17

I have a child (two actually, one when I was young and one when I was much older), am 10 years PQE and work in the city. There is flexibility but it isn't that flexible. And I am not sure that being allowed to pick up your child and then work once they've gone to bed is the "perk" you think it is. WFH has increased the time I spend working.

In my experience, there are a huge number of women in law but there are many many more male partners than there are women. The women are still working there, just not being promoted.

kirinm · 11/07/2022 14:19

@Contract I have to admit I know very little about the SQE. I assume you can still do the GDL and LPC route or is it the SQE route and nothing else?

Are you just doing a TC? So you've already done your LPC?

kirinm · 11/07/2022 14:21

@Contract I also didn't say they'd evade it. I said they wouldn't fund it.

Contract · 11/07/2022 14:29

kirinm · 11/07/2022 14:19

@Contract I have to admit I know very little about the SQE. I assume you can still do the GDL and LPC route or is it the SQE route and nothing else?

Are you just doing a TC? So you've already done your LPC?

I haven't done the LPC, but I have a QLD prior to September 2021 so I could do either the LPC or the SQE. My firm want me to do the SQE route.

Anyone with a QLD signed up before September 2021 can do either the LPC or the SQE, and then the TC. Anyone without a QLD signed up before September 2021 has to do the SQE and then the TC to qualify. A degree, the SQE and a TC are the only SRA requirements going forward but, because a lot of firms think the SQE isn't comprehensive enough, they're also insisting on a QLD - either with law as a first degree or by funding a PGDL.

I agree with your firm that the change isn't great. The intention supposedly was to make the law more accessible but I can't fathom how they think this change achieved that in any way, shape or form. I'd much rather do the LPC route to be honest. Even if it's just that they're refusing to fund the SQE, I can't see how a large global firm will be able to recruit high calibre trainees without a huge amount of criticism for not funding the training that they need to do. I'd imagine they'd receive astonishing backlash (and quite rightly) because refusing to pay for the required qualifications would mean they're (pretty much) restricting their intake to those who have rich parents. It doesn't look great from a diversity perspective, regardless on their view of the SQE (which I agree with).

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