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Original poster

Why do Grammar schools have better facilities?

71 replies

UndertheCedartree · 09/07/2022 21:44

We've been looking at secondary schools for my DD.

The Grammar school stands out as having better facilities, nicer and more outside space, very good head teacher and pastoral support. I'm just wondering how come Grammar's are so much better? Do they get more funding or do the middle class parents donate to the school?

I hate the Grammar system as it just seems to mean the other schools aren't very good.

OP posts:
Coops1988 · 25/08/2022 17:23

I'd say historically they are the ones founded on schools that had money to begin with, so often were in building that already had grounds etc. Add in to that reputation and inevitably they attract certain teachers and parents. This improves quality of teaching, makes fundraising for facilities better etc.

The comps etc were generally built for function of the system. When the 11+ was everywhere and taken by everyone. Some of them in a tiered system inevitably end up as the "sink" schools. They end up with the kids with the most challenges, so they are less desirable to teach in and less desirable to lead because the pressure is on to magically fix issues you actually probably can without enough people and money to deliver massive support. This leads frequently to regularly changing heads (a bit like how struggling footie teams get through managers) and this exacerbates the issues. The grammatd tend to stay settled with longstanding heads while the non-grammars see fairly frequent change.

Signoramarella · 25/08/2022 17:28

Our state secondary has had 4 Heads in 2 years. TBH its 'dump'school, and none of us ( staff) even want to be there.

I pity the kids there. Their parents have no idea how awful it is, or maybe they do.

If my ds was up to it, I woud send him to a grammar in a heartbeat. All the way. good luck!

RayneDance · 25/08/2022 17:31

How is it any responsibility of a grammar if the other schools are not good?

GrammarTeacher · 25/08/2022 17:32

No grammars don't have more funding. They have whatever the local formula says per pupil like other state schools.
One near me is very good at winning bids and has some amazing facilities as a result. On the other hand my classroom was just repainted for the first time in 15 years.

They can often, however, raise more from parents (again this varies school to school) some comprehensives in expensive areas also have this advantage.
But they don't get more funding per pupil.

catndogslife · 25/08/2022 17:32

That's just based on your local grammar school though, not necessarily true for all schools of that type.
PS I went to a grammar school and there were buckets in some of the classrooms to collect water from the leaking roof when it rained.

RayneDance · 25/08/2022 17:35

Cats I remember looking around two school both shabby for DD, but the comp in the 70s rabbit Hutch building seemed so much more depressing than the olde wolde ancient Grammar which also had stained threadbare carpets but was just over all so much more beautiful.

mrcow · 25/08/2022 17:37

We don’t.

I don’t even have enough rooms for my department. We make do and mend where we have to. Our local comps look like brand new business centres in comparison!

Coops1988 · 25/08/2022 17:40

Talking about the system in general it contributes to a tiered system. The grammars get to cream off the pupils they want and boo sucks to everyone else. Broadly speaking great for those who get the grammars but bad for the country as a whole because we "drop" kids at age 11. 11.
The class system, not helped by tiered education, is part of the reason we're currently governed by people who make plain on a DAILY basis they care little for those below them, especially those one might consider at the bottom and the systems in place all just encourage those who can avoid being at the bottom to do whatever they can to stay above them with little care themselves for what really happens to those people. Accepting inequality as long as it's not you on the losing side.

RayneDance · 25/08/2022 17:42

Coopers there are too few Grammar left now to make the difference you are talking about.

Yes it's true that Gramma seems to be another route into politics from Labour,lib Dems and Tory..

Unfortunately the set up now doesn't actually help with social movement like it used too in the 50s.

RayneDance · 25/08/2022 17:43

Also coop comps have inequality but more in your Face through stream's and sets.

GrammarTeacher · 25/08/2022 17:44

@mrcow snap on the not enough rooms!

fishonabicycle · 25/08/2022 17:47

This is completely untrue. My son went to a grammar and they actually got less funding than the comprehensive - because there were very few children with additional needs (who get extra funding). The only extra money they got was if the parents raised money for things.

ClocksGoingBackwards · 25/08/2022 17:48

The grammar school my ds went to didn’t have better facilities. If anything, because the buildings were so old, they had worse facilities. But the good stuff they did have was because parents did a huge amount of fundraising, many of them recognised that they were saving money on private school fees so they’d make large donations, and many ex pupils made donations as well. They definitely didn’t get any extra funding from government.

x2boys · 25/08/2022 17:52

Most areas in the UK don't have Grammar schools
It's the shiny new academy's that have the best facilities ime ,on the surface at least

Montgomerymmoose · 25/08/2022 17:53

I went to a grammar school in the 80s . It was a big old house and some Portacabins . The facilities were quite poor and it was cold and draughty .
Think St. Trinians .

Patchworkpatty · 25/08/2022 17:58

It's simple.. to get to a grammar you have to take an 11+. and pass. There are VERY FEW grammars

The 11+ grammar 'system' was abolished in the 1970s (but a number of areas found ways to keep them going ) such as Kent..

This means that preparation for the exam cannot be done in state primary schools (including Kent).. which means the only way is to pay for tutoring.... obsessive tutoring starts around here in year 2.. it is pretty much the only topic of conversation between parents of the middle class dinner party variety for the 3-4 years before the exam.

Those who can afford this level of tutoring to hone the particular skills required for the 11+ have by definition come from wealthy/very wealthy families.

The sort of families that have spare dosh to endow upon their kids schools. Both private and corporate money.

The whole system is extremely wrong. My daughters bf mum was a 'super head' of two local primaries. She hated the system because of the number of naturally bright kids who would previously had a good shot at the grammar when it was prepped in primary but are now outshone by those who have years of learning the 'technique' - not because they are brighter - far from it.. but because they have parents with money who can pay for tutoring.

The whole system needs abolishing. You either pay for private education or it is genuinely open for all with prep being given to all primary school kids to make the field flat.

If you disbelieve me - just stop by TOGS, Judd, TWGGS, Tun Wells Grammar and Skinners in Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wellls and look at the vehicles picking these kids up.. wall to wall Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes' 4x4s... (easily afforded when you are getting a private education on the state)

ItsSnowJokes · 25/08/2022 18:06

I worked at a grammar for a long time (not teaching) and they used to get a lot more money out of parents than secondary moderns ever would. For eg, one tike a trip was made a day shorter, so the school said they could refund the £50 or the parents could donate it to the school. So many parents just donated it, I was stunned (I hadn't been working there long when this happened) that so many didn't want the refund. I think at that school a lot of very well off parents saw it as they were saving ££££££ on private fees so would donate well.

RayneDance · 25/08/2022 18:11

Patch not every child does need tutoring and especially not for year's.

Even the super selective the child may need a brush up on maths or something or help with NVR bjy but it's not essential.

Thenightwemet16 · 25/08/2022 18:12

Patchworkpatty · 25/08/2022 17:58

It's simple.. to get to a grammar you have to take an 11+. and pass. There are VERY FEW grammars

The 11+ grammar 'system' was abolished in the 1970s (but a number of areas found ways to keep them going ) such as Kent..

This means that preparation for the exam cannot be done in state primary schools (including Kent).. which means the only way is to pay for tutoring.... obsessive tutoring starts around here in year 2.. it is pretty much the only topic of conversation between parents of the middle class dinner party variety for the 3-4 years before the exam.

Those who can afford this level of tutoring to hone the particular skills required for the 11+ have by definition come from wealthy/very wealthy families.

The sort of families that have spare dosh to endow upon their kids schools. Both private and corporate money.

The whole system is extremely wrong. My daughters bf mum was a 'super head' of two local primaries. She hated the system because of the number of naturally bright kids who would previously had a good shot at the grammar when it was prepped in primary but are now outshone by those who have years of learning the 'technique' - not because they are brighter - far from it.. but because they have parents with money who can pay for tutoring.

The whole system needs abolishing. You either pay for private education or it is genuinely open for all with prep being given to all primary school kids to make the field flat.

If you disbelieve me - just stop by TOGS, Judd, TWGGS, Tun Wells Grammar and Skinners in Tonbridge/Tunbridge Wellls and look at the vehicles picking these kids up.. wall to wall Porsche, Bentley, Mercedes' 4x4s... (easily afforded when you are getting a private education on the state)

Kent, although it does have some 'super selectives', does just also have your bog standard Grammars, where you just have to reach the pass mark, you're not competing against others.

I don't doubt that things have changed (has the pass mark increased?), but in the 90s, noone had tutors; all the preparation I had was a few practice papers and we definitely didn't get prepped in school for it. And it worked, the naturally bright kids from all backgrounds passed 🤷‍♀️ Like many of my cohort, I was the first in my family to go to university.

And of course, by the very nature of the area, those schools you name will have rich parents! I'm sure the same is true of other schools in the vicinity. Might be different in the car parks of Grammars in Medway!

hummerbird · 25/08/2022 18:24

There is another thread running about a woman having a hard time getting from her car into her home because of low level aggravation from the low lifes in the council houses neat hers. The parents of those brats would never be interested in education would they? Volunteer to help - Nah mate!

Malie · 25/08/2022 18:32

Grammar schools have the best teachers because everyone wants (understandably) to teach brighter kids. They gave opportunity for working class kids (like me) to get a decent education although of course some kids missed out. They also increased social mobility unlike comprehensives where all the kids from the deprived area go to that school together. Hence you get ‘sink’ schools. Under the comprehensive system education comes down to where you live - pot luck. Middle and upper classes do better.

MardyBumm · 25/08/2022 18:39

Malie · 25/08/2022 18:32

Grammar schools have the best teachers because everyone wants (understandably) to teach brighter kids. They gave opportunity for working class kids (like me) to get a decent education although of course some kids missed out. They also increased social mobility unlike comprehensives where all the kids from the deprived area go to that school together. Hence you get ‘sink’ schools. Under the comprehensive system education comes down to where you live - pot luck. Middle and upper classes do better.

I would disagree that they have the best teachers. Anyone can teach a small class of bright children.

Thenightwemet16 · 25/08/2022 18:40

And I'm sure in counties without Grammar schools, you get a social divide, because the houses that are in the catchment for the best schools will be much more expensive than those in the catchment for the rubbish ones!

I have a friend who's moved to Kent talk lovingly about the good old system in the midlands where "everyone just walked to their local school", seemingly forgetting that her parents lived in a five-bedroomed detached house in a quaint village...

livingthegoodlife · 25/08/2022 18:40

I reckon they get more parental donations. My comp had no facilities. Grammar around the corner had a whole sports gym building donated by a parent! And someone I knows parents donated the equivalent of school fees when they moved their child there mid school age (so think 3-4 years of private school fees just donated!).

Malie · 25/08/2022 18:51

MardyBumm · 25/08/2022 18:39

I would disagree that they have the best teachers. Anyone can teach a small class of bright children.

Show quote history

Of course, but it still means the best teachers apply. Sorry that’s real life.