Private Schools being able to hold charitable status

[IdiotCreatures]

I went and looked at a building associated with a local independent school yesterday, as it's always piqued my curiosity.
The school is run by the Woodard Corporation. I looked at their books on company house yesterday.
The amount of money moving through them is ridiculous. If people want to pay for a private education, then surely the institutions should be taxed.
Apart from a small number of scholarships, the average person is not benefiting from these institutions.
In the case of Eton, as pointed out on another thread, these schools are probably leading to damage to society and definitely do not promote the idea of equality.

I don't know @TullyApplebottom - I guess according to the extent that you feel a twinge of recognition, or mildly stung? I don't feel that I can in conscience stop pointing out inequity and describing its impacts because people find it or me awkward. It is often excruciating for me tbh. But I do feel a moral obligation - and in particular to point out that many of the things we think are 'natural' are not at all, and are in fact very ideologically conservative, individualist, anti-communitarian, and have the goal of making us believe that consumer capitalism is the natural state of humanity. But I can't make you hear it if you won't.

No-one made me God. But I am judging you, as all humans judge each other.

I don't think we should remove the charity status. Insisting some of their extra curricular activities are available to the local population would be good though. It must save the state a shit load of money having swathes of parents pay taxes and then not take up a state education place.

I think many parents waste their money on school fees anyway. The people I know who have been to private schools and done well, I think would have succeeded anywhere. I know lots of privately educated people that have had their struggles through life, including bankruptcy (probably trying to keep up with posh friends), poor mental health and physical health. I don't think it's a magic tablet for future success.

I agree @HairyToity, but there are sufficient numbers for whom it does give a serious and unfair lift in terms of opportunity for that truth to be irrelevant here. Additionally, I don't think that many parents are aware of that when they scramble over others.

What’s kinda funny is that my parents grew up in socialist countries, as did I for most of my childhood until we moved to the UK. When they could afford it, they sent me to private school. For all the propaganda about the decadent west and the evils on inequality, in their eyes it was something to aspire to. To be able to provide that for their children. I was, am, far from the only post Soviet child to be sent to private school, so it’s not an unusual sentiment.

parents, for the most part, will avail themselves to every opportunity they can for the perceived benefit of their children, whether it’s ‘fair’ or not, ‘selfish’ or not. Tbh I don’t think selfishness is an inherently negative trait anyway, so being called selfish hasn’t ever been something that’s bothered me. I don’t, and wouldn’t, deny my loved ones opportunities I can afford, so if that makes me selfish? Okay, I’m selfish.

Soviet 'socialism' is not what I'm proposing - in fact, my politics are profoundly opposed to that kind of state capitalism. Suggesting that a Soviet-style system is the alternative that is being proposed to rabid individualism is .. well, ideological, and easy to refute. I'm glad you escaped it, but it doesn't give you a pass.

I wasn’t asking for a pass.

My point wasn’t that Soviet socialism was what you were proposing, or that it’s the only alternative to individualism (which exists also on a spectrum). My point is that, despite ideological hammering, and despite not having the option (and indeed being taught that having the option was undesirable), it was still desirable. It was something to aspire to, and to provide if possible.

@WinterDeWinter - do you object to paid tutoring or tutoring your own kids? taking them to museums and funding music lessons or sports is ok I presume?

I agree lotteries are fairer than catchments but there are some practical difficulties - eg how do you deal with siblings (is both get into good school or risk having them at schools at opposite ends of city)?

do you object to paid tutoring or tutoring your own kids?

I don't object to paid tutoring at all, of course it really helps some kids, but I do think it should be declared on applications to university. My DS went to a terrible school, and it's really noticeable in the GCSE and A-level results amongst his friends who had tutoring and who didn't. No system will ever are things perfectly fair, of course, but an indication of what kind of support candidates have or don't have - whether from private schooling, or tutoring, or being from a school in a deprived area - helps to give a fairer indication to universities about the relative potential of the candidates, beyond their grades.

There is a very grey area between tutoring and helping with homework though…

If I am a maths teacher and help DS with his homework and explain the things he doesn’t understand, am I being a tutor or a mum?

@HairyToity I don't think the benefit of private school is all about ultimate outcomes. If I could, I would bring mine to my school because of the experience they would have for the 5/7 years in terms of small group, the house system, the clubs and sports. Their grades may or may not be better but the actual time they have would be. My son in y8 is gradually falling into

@ChiselandBits Perhaps your child would have a better experience in a private school, but I was terribly bullied at my private school, and the smaller class size meant that there was no one I really connected to. I just don't think the grass is always greener. Sometimes it is of course.

I think people pay a shitload of money, with no guarantee for future happiness. If it's easily affordable (as it was with my parents), then why not, but if you've got to make massive sacrifices, then maybe err on caution. Nobody can see into the future, so who's to know if it's a good decision or not till later on.

We have chosen state supplemented by private tutors and lots of extra curricular activities. No regrets so far.

Not sure what happened to the rest of my post..he's falling into general apathy and it's not cool to do activities or clubs. Not the case where I work. @HairyToity of course nothing is guaranteed but I know what my school offers, it's a known quantity and I know the kids. I am not saying for one second that all private school experiences will be better than all state, and 'better' can mean lots of different things. But I really dislike the attitude that leads posters to call anyone who uses private education selfish cunts.

@ChiselandBits I agree with you on that one. I don't think private schools cause state schools to be poorer. I think we should just accept private education is an option to some parents, and try to improve state, rather than bring down private.

We can agree on that @WinterDeWinter the catchment system is long overdue, I can't see any govt taking on private and highly desirable state schools to widen accessibility though.

Tbh, if they did, and allowed state money to place kids from any area in private or desirable state schools that may actually widen access.

@WinterDeWinter @ArcheryAnnie the only way to make things completely fair would be to remove children from their homes completely and put them all into boarding schools.
Then we can get rid of ALL influencing factors. This would especially benefit children who have a bad home life like abuse etc.

Strangely.. not a popular idea.

And it’s not even about money. Parental attitude and support is a big influence. Where I come from illiterate people make their children study - they know it’s one of the only ways out of poverty. However a child whose parents had just given up wouldn’t. Same school. Same economic background.

Of course it’s not to THAT extent in the U.K. but similar, there are people In ‘deprived’ communities who value education. You’d want to punish them though. You think it’s unfair their children have involved parents.

Also r.e tutoring vs not.
all you’re saying is those who didn’t get any learnt the exact way school taught. Am equally bright child who is a more visual or hands on learner for example may be left out. Doesn’t mean they’re not as bright . Tutor might have unlocked their potential.

There are a lot of free tutoring programmes, in religious institutions like mosques. Serving many poorer members of the community.
So not declaring that is fine?
but a middle class parent paid professional tutor is not fine?

Dom that wouldn't work either.
Some teachers and boarding school would be vastly better than others and again, some would be abusive hell holes.

Quite. Look at the senior politicians (Blair, Cameron etc.) who have made a political point of sending their children to state schools. These certainly aren't failing inner city comps of course, they're the best state schools that house prices or arranging church flowers can buy.

If you go out of your way to get your child into a good state school, you're just as sharp-elbowed as those who pay school fees. Yet according to some on here, only the latter are reinforcing inequality.

@SW1amp @DomPerignon12 I did say that I dont thinkbits possible to have an entirely fair system, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't think about tweaks that would make the current system a bit fairer, overall. It wouldn't work the same for everyone, but then so system does.

@SW1amp that's one of the things that I don't think can be accounted for, but you can't account for every variable, just do your best.

University admissions are (or should be) about picking the kids who have potential, and who would make the best of the opportunities and do well on whatever degree course it is. Giving admissions tutors as much information as possible about what might have helped or hindered each candidate in showing that potential (or lack of it) seems to be a good thing, even if it can't be done perfectly.

@ArcheryAnnie
i just think the end result would be that those who know how to game the system get a bigger advantage, and the rest stay where they are

same as the ‘abolish private schools’ crew, who don’t have an answer for what do with the parents who would send their kids to the super elite Swiss boarding schools, or the french/Swiss outposts that would be hastily created by the newly-abolished British schools

because what would happen is that those already at the top of the privilege tree climb even higher, and those on the lower branches slip down

of course they shouldn’t hold charitable status iits shocking that they do

they absolutely are businesses and many are extremely successful

and no there shouldn’t be a tax rebate state schools will still be there if you need them

Anyone else see the story in the news yesterday about Kings Canterbury School taking a massive donation from a now sanctioned oligarch to build new science labs?! Just imagine how that (unfortunately most likely dirty) money might have helped a real charity…

Excellent @Blinkingbatshit - and I wonder if they can claim 15 per cent tax relief on that from the tax payer?
Sheesh. Just awful

Once again, I point out that the fact that perfection is not possible does not mean that we have no obligation to those left behind.