To agree with the Supreme Court's decision to overturn Roe v Wade?

[thereareotherways]

Obviously I can predict the voting already! Ha.

TL;DR (at the top!): I support abortion but think Roe v Wade (and later cases) are not legally sound, and there are better ways to secure women's rights that would have more public support.

I'm personally not opposed to abortion in most real-life circumstances. I think after viability I would prefer other options to be explored, but I think most women having later-term abortions are doing it for serious medical reasons and I don't think that should be prosecuted. That said, I also am okay in principle with regulating abortion and I'm not an absolutist re: women's control: I think the fetus/baby does have some rights (which I weight proportionally more as the baby grows).

As I understand it, Roe v Wade and Casey rely on a right to "liberty" in the US constitution (primarily the 14th amendment), which otherwise doesn't mention abortion. I'm not a lawyer at all, I find this tenuous at best. Liberty has always had implied limits based on what's acceptable in society, and abortion was illegal until fairly recently. I don't think there's any justification for claiming that there's an implied consent of the people that abortion is morally acceptable - and the polarisation of the US on this issue reflects that.

I think the decision in Roe/Casey to impose abortion via activist judges was a poor decision both legally and politically. This is a clear case where elected representatives need to pass legislation that reflects their constituents' positions. If that legislation differs from state-to-state, well, that's the whole point of a federal system. Pro-choice candidates need to get elected in red states and then they will have the actual consent of the people, not tenuous implied consent.

The decision in Dobbs is here and good reading: www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/19-1392_6j37.pdf

I also have a faint hope that now that this has been overturned, both Republicans and Democrats might now return their focus to legislation instead of Supreme Court nominees. The power of the Supreme Court is too dominating in US politics: we should be pleased to see them ceding some power back to the legislature, i.e., the people's representatives!

I do understand that there are levels of government. In the US this means that we have a Congress, similar to your Parliament. But in addition to that, we have a similar legislative set up for each of the fifty states. So the right to have an abortion would have to be codified at each level. This is extremely difficult, not only because we are not as agile as your Parliament but also because the people in power in those states are committed to preventing such legislation from passing.

This is oppression. It is not the fault of the women being oppressed that they can't overcome their oppression politically.

You praise your parliament's agility to respond to the times. Does this mean that you believe that the pro abortion legislation that they have passed in the past should be subject to being overturned in future should the times change?

Is this why you don't want to see Stonewall style no debate come to UK over the abortion issue? Do you want to debate settled law?

"Settled law". That's what Kavanaugh called Roe vs Wade during his confirmation hearings.

"I do understand that there are levels of government. In the US this means that we have a Congress, similar to your Parliament. But in addition to that, we have a similar legislative set up for each of the fifty states. So the right to have an abortion would have to be codified at each level. This is extremely difficult, not only because we are not as agile as your Parliament but also because the people in power in those states are committed to preventing such legislation from passing"

Wow, just wow. There really isn't any difficult about a woman's mind and her body.

Wtf am I missing her?

When is a woman's body legislative?

Anyway I can't be doing with other women doing mental gymnastics trying to make this shit show right in their minds.

The current cynical thought floating around is that’s a good voter base energizer come election time. I personally think there is something to that.

It’s the perfect hot button to scare people to vote for you (either way). If you are a Democratic candidate right now, this is a dream come true. Let’s be honest Biden’s polling and approval rating is a dumpster fire with Republicans (obviously) but also Independents. His approval rating with Democrats is also low. The Democrats were facing an impossible task this November.

Now I’m not saying they orchestrated this court decision, but they are damn well going to use it to their advantage just as they have at every election. To be fair the Republicans have been and will do the same.

In case you are wondering what other tropes are pulled out at election time
-Economy (R)
-2A (Both)
-Abortion (Both)
-Weed legalization (D)
-Universal Healthcare (D)
-School Funding (D)
New this year will be
-Riots (R)
-Defund the Police (R they’ll bring up the movement every chance they get)
-COVID (D)

"Settled law". That's what Kavanaugh called Roe vs Wade during his confirmation hearings.
Did ANYONE think this is what he believed though and he wasn’t simply chosen by Trump to pander to the people that brought him to office? And weren’t his hearings mostly him failing to address sexual misconduct allegations sufficiently..? - I hardly think people watched all of that and came away thinking that women’s rights were now safe.

Oh come on now...

America the land of the free, the big economic giant...

Is crap.
That's the truth, isn't it?

@thereareotherways I agree that it would have been far better if this could have been settled by legislation in US that mustered a reasonable degree of consensus, as has been the case in the UK. However as the attached graph shows, consensus seems pretty elusive nowadays, so maybe there's been a missed opportunity.

(And yeah, I know: "under any circumstances" - what does that mean? etc - but the point is the polarisation not getting hung up on nuance of framing)

Anyway given where we all are today, I cannot be glad that Roe vs Wade got overturned, because I can't see an easy way that anything decent is going to come after it. What may happen is the overturning ends up having sufficiently negative polling consequences for sufficiently many Republican politicians that it forces a rethink on their part. But I'm not hopeful. There's a long, hard fight ahead.

We knew he didn't mean it.

He knew he didn't mean it.

@Arkestra
Besides politics, religion and legislation. America is crap isn't it. Especially toward women

Does this mean that you believe that the pro abortion legislation that they have passed in the past should be subject to being overturned in future should the times change?

I recognise that the legal system under which I live does allow parliament to amend the current abortion laws, yes. And that if it ever becomes politically popular to restrict abortion further, it is likely to happen.

There are no rights that I take for granted as being settled forever.

My honest opinion is that the majority of people I speak to in real life have a personal line somewhere between "end of first trimester" and "viability" (let's say ~12-24 weeks) where the balance shifts for them.

I care very much about what they think because public support is essentially the defence for abortion - and also contraception, interracial and same-sex marriage, etc. I fear that ideological hard lines that are out of step with the public's instincts are likely to backfire.

Ruth Bader Ginsburg regretted that Roe was imposed universally too early, before enough momentum and public support had gathered. More moderate positions might have prevailed and the hardline heartbeat-style laws might have died a quiet death without the anger about Roe hanging over the country.

Your argument is flimsy and relies on parroting some very facile arguments and I think you're spewing some seriously disingenuous garbage.

Thank you for engaging with me on the constitutional question and yes, I have read the dissent as well as the other non-majority opinions.

I find your position to be very similar to those who say women should just not get pregnant.

It's not as blatant but it comes from the same place.

Imagine being so blinkered you could think it was a good idea. Imagine not knowing that children and women are raped and now have to have their rapist's baby because abortion is illegal. Imagine being a lesbian and as a result of rape you not only get violated but have to look at a visual reminder of that experience? Imagine having to work really hard or sell things you love to pay for a backstreet abortion which could give you HIV or make you infertile or even kill you. Imagine that. No. Its not a good thing. Its not something any woman should be pleased about. Its another example of women's rights being dictated by men. And there will be more children's social care referrals and more deaths and more suicides as a direct result of this. Any woman with half a brain should be utterly outraged. If you don't think this is a big deal then I hope you don't live in America and are raped. Its disgusting. I'm gutted.

"My honest opinion is that the majority of people I speak to in real life have a personal line somewhere between "end of first trimester" and "viability" (let's say ~12-24 weeks) where the balance shifts for them."

You and those others opinions are irrelevant. It's none of your business.

You know that, right? It isn't your body. It's not your life and I'll bet my house you won't fund that child once it's born

Agree.

You're clearly very well educated and you don't want to openly align your arguments with our more radical anti abortionists who rely on fundamentalist religious dogma or regular old misogynistic slut shaming but your motivation is clear, as evidenced by your references to sensation examples of abortion. Such as 37 weeks and art projects.

You're also very well informed of strict constitutionalist based interpretations of law but you don't want to admit that the end result of this ruling will be women unable to obtain abortions after six weeks, or in Oklahoma, from the moment of fertilization. Not only will they be denied this health care but they will also be subject to prosecution for obtaining an abortion. As will any persons who assist them. Women will also be subject to investigation for any miscarriages.

What is your end goal for the legality of abortion services in the UK? Since you believe that the laws as they currently stand are not settled? That they can ( and should?) be changed as those who possess political power see fit?

My little angry head is leaving the floor to @Boxowine

You and those others opinions are irrelevant. It's none of your business.

They are very relevant in the UK because those people vote for MPs whose views reflect theirs. And that's what affects the law.

There is no kind of "natural right" to abortion in the UK aside from regular legislation. Whether you think there should be is a different story.

"They are very relevant in the UK because those people vote for MPs whose views reflect theirs. And that's what affects the law."

There's not a chance in hell that religious, backward shit will find its way into UK law. Not a chance. They're might be a few backward thinking MPs but it'll never happen here. And thank "god"

A lot of things have been happening lately that people kept saying there's no way it will happen.

@ldontWanna I honestly believe however shit we are as a country, we aren't that shit.

Sending migrants to Rwanda would have been considered unthinkable a few years ago. Re-introduction of the death penalty is certainly a forthcoming possibility.. I don't share your optimism !

@Mango101 it isn't happening here. Women are strong in this country. Religion isn't at the forefront. Yes, loads of shit happening, I agree, but this won't be one of them. No way. We've come too far!

So american women are just weak and let this happen to them somehow? I bet they never thought it would happen there either.

It can't happen here, is just as deluded as "it can't happen to me" teenage invincibility.

Accepting that it can happen here (and anywhere) is what keeps us alert ,vigilant and aware of any slippery slopes.

What is your end goal for the legality of abortion services in the UK? Since you believe that the laws as they currently stand are not settled?

I'm fine with them as they are now (granted I'm only familiar with E&W so I suppose I should limit it to that). Just making a comment that in theory there's nothing stopping a future parliament from changing the laws (there are some insightful posts in the Overton window thread about it).

To answer a wider question - I think the philosophical debates are one thing but there is still a lot of scope for "practicality activism" here. I know someone who works in a London sexual health clinic who despairs over the backlog and wait lists.

This is why I really respected the telemedical abortion campaign. It addressed a very practical problem very quickly, affecting many women (most abortions are in that 9-10 week window), enables a preferable result for more women (early medical termination rather than surgical), and was the result of women staying involved and active in the legislative process (reading specific amendments, etc).