Public sector pay rise demands unreasonable?

[stickershock]

I’m a nurse and outraged that we’ll only be getting (most likely) a 3% wage increase. I’m fully in favour of a strike action. But I’ve also just read that the junior doctors are planning a strike if they aren’t awarded a 22% increase 😮

We have all been losing wages year on year but 22% seems unrealistic. AIBU or have they got brilliant bargaining tactics?

Well said @Itisasecret. I encountered multiple people during my NHS career who have been in post for many years, resistant to change and no inclination to move as waiting it out for their pensions. I have absolutely no doubt it will have been decimated further by the time those of us who are under 40 get to pension age, especially as it is a race to the bottom rather than trying to pull others up.

Current situation is the tip of the iceberg and whilst everyone is fighting over who has it worse, access to NHS/free education will disappear

Yes, it’s a tricky one - I mean it is a business like any other. But it’s low/no capital investment once you’re a consultant, limited/no marketing required and you can choose the tax structure that is more efficient at the time, depending on your PAYE income and the number of patients you’re seeing privately. Plus the start-up costs are limited to accountancy fees and the purchase of a shelfco.

Another unintended consequence is that as the PP business grows there is a temptation to reduce NHS time. DH hasn’t done this, but when asked recently which clinics he’d like to cover, he chose a few of the more affluent areas because it’s more likely to generate PP referral. So not exactly a conflict of interest, but not entirely comfortable either… in some ways we’ve created a very two-tier system in the name of equal access.

Yes.

Linked wages.

So the highest earner can't earn more than 20 x what the lowest earns.

Say 3 months full pay 3 months half.

Pensions what do you pay your employees? You said it was good. So whatever that is

What a great idea, Can see this has traction.

CEO has 5 employees earning £25k
3 earning £20k
Max they can earn is capped by the 3 staff at lower levels, so, easily solved by laying off those three and providing a £100k boos to the ceo income.

Morality aside, people woudl work the system, and to think anything other is naive.

I know your respoonse will be ' well pay the £20k people £25k' - Sadly the public purse cash cow isn't open to all.

I class the pension as good, however, you may class it as awful?

When taxation becomes too complicated, tax revenue is lost. Plain and simplte

And a space to consult / small number of staff? Or not included in start up cost

Given the grades needed, competition, training, hours etc to get there I’d keep it overall. I also think the U.K. does well to bring in o/s paid for care on reputation of private (we used private GOSH and we were rare not from M.E) and NHS keeps the highly skilled for the most part.

How would they run the business without employees?

I dont know what you mean by public cash cow not open to all.

It is. Its just those at the top are greedy.

Wealth inequality has to be tackled.

We can all put our fingers in our ears and say lalalala but the crisis isn't going away. And more are coming.

Capitalism is sinking

Try RTFT. I posted an example of an Executive Asst/glorified PA at Birmingham Uni. Starting salary 26K with only a requirement of A levels. That is overpaid.

“The average salary for an Executive Assistant is £37,883 per year in United Kingdom“ - Glassdoor

I’ve seen senior EAs earn £60-80k in the city. So no, £26k doesn’t sound overpaid to me.

I don’t know about PAs in universities, but PAs to head teachers in schools have a massively diverse and complicated role. It may only require A levels, but I’m pretty sure it also requires years of experience and competence in a similar setting.

Yes, consultation space needed, although for DH the private unit takes a small % of fees so there is no initial outlay (although if you’re not earning your keep they might send you packing I suppose!) That set-up also works pretty well for the NHS because some profits are reinvested in the main cancer centre abd the PP’s get access to all the “nice to haves” there, like alternative therapies, Maggie’s, etc. I‘m sure there are hospitals/parts of the UK which don’t lend themselves to PP quite so readily - specifically because the vast majority of those accessing private treatment are in the SE or a few wealthy enclaves outside it. (This is yet another reason why the best doctors tend to be based in wealthy areas).

There is still a cachet with UK medicine but I would say it’s receding. When I lived in the ME, US clinics (ie outposts of places like the Mayo Clinic etc) were preferred locally.

Increased efficiency, increased workload on existing staff, more automation, stream line procedures, cut back on offerings, reduce the size of the company.

None of these are conducive with a healthy and prosperous environmnet.

I can not demand a pay increase for my staff of 22% and expect the general tax paying public to pay it, I can increase my prices, then I lose custom. Howver, public sector pay increases are a cost burdened by all tax payers.

It appears that socialism is sinking, as you are very quickly running our of every one else's money!

Ironically, it’s wage caps which have resulted in the shit show now.

You’ve got the dinosaurs at the top who have marked time, earned their increments and great pension. At the bottom, you’ve got highly
skilled graduates who can’t afford to live near work, you’ll often find an ECT in the bar working. We have the highest teaching attrition rates in the early careers. This is now feeding through to schools. Same in the NHS. The military and civil
service is the biggie. Why should my highly skilled and talented husband earn less than someone who is hanging on for the pension. If you ignore the fact that his original pension terms were changed to much less favourable terms so he left and now outranks them in all
aspects.

It is a real problem; people early on in their public careers can’t afford to live in the here and now. Skilled professionals, especially those with favourable skill sets and degrees are much, much better off outside. A life time of crap pay is no longer worth while for a naff pension which is raided every time the Govt wants to make cutbacks so people leave. They then have a much more profitable career in the private sector. People need to realise the pensions no longer keep anyone in the public sector.

It’s astonishing that people really are so blind to the crisis which is emerging. Serious, serious recruitment and retention problems happening right now which are only just beginning to trickle through.

London maybe, certainly not the Midlands. We can argue all we want about salaries. The point is, which keeps being ignored, this is NOT the time to be cstriking when ppl are struggling with living costs. The strikes are selfish, insular and so representative of Labour. The party who is meant to have everyone's interests at heart. Yeah, right. Try telling that to the industries, who are going to suffer even more. The pandemic, arguably might not have been man made but these strikes certainly are.

@fromdownwest

What makes it other people's money?

They didn't earn it without the input of others.

You didn't answer my question earlier. You seem to totally resent and grudge paying for public services. Should all public services be scrapped and handed over to the private sector?

@Callingoccupants

And the point you and others keep ignoring is its not those on lower wages fault.

Its not them being selfish

This is not the time to be allowing million pound salaries and billions in profits

You do realise there are nurses, teachers and junior doctors that are having to rely on food banks? These “essential workers” remember when everyone clapped for them? They cannot afford to eat. The starting salaries are incredibly poor in these professions considering the near 100k student debt you start off with. These people aren’t selfish. They can’t afford to live. Which is why we now don’t have enough of a skilled public workforce to cope.

Not at all, I think that taxation is part of a healthy socio economic environment. I pay my fair share of tax, and see that as par of a healthy society.

I don't begrudge public services, even though I am lucky enough to not to have to use them (in good health etc)

I am also against full movement to the private sector, and think that certain assets need to remain under public control.

However, I do feel that they should not be classed as beyond reproach. We pay taxes, so we should be able to hold them accountable to their actions and expenditure. If the NHS is wasting money, an indepenent body should be able to highlight this, and if efficiencies are required, then they should be voted in. Protecting the NHS, is not allowing any changes, protecting the NHS, should be ensuring that it is an evolving entity keeping up to date with the ever changing world we live in.

My issue, is when people are demaning 22% pay rises, and bemoaning their 'rubbish' pensions, and being blind to the harship that people in the private sector are facing. It is jsut crass in my opinion

Of course it's selfish. Unless you are struggling to heat your house and eat, this is a ridiculous time to strike. I would far rather see pension age being lowered to age 60 for men AND women. Not see a secretary, in the public sector, being paid nearly 30K for managing diaries and organising conferences. You can dress it up all you want, private companies are funded by private income generation
Public organisations are propped up by the tax payer's. THAT is why these strikes are adding insult to injury. Basic economics- I thought you were the one saying you had a grasp of that.

It’s astonishing that people really are so blind to the crisis which is emerging.

This is precisely what the Tories want, so the population say the public sector is not working, and accept the Tories’ aim that privatisation is the only way to get services!

The transport minister doesn’t have time to meet the RMT, while the chancellor has time to meet the oil companies, hit by a windfall tax? The government has been out to destroy union power since Thatcher (and that is what selling council houses and privatisation have all been about) and it’s taking on the RMT atm - and trying to turn the public against them!

You do realise there are nurses, teachers and junior doctors that are having to rely on food banks?

There really aren't (at least not without a significant gambling habit). HCA's and carers, maybe. Those that claim to be destitute tend to be shilling for socialist votes. If you cannot live on £26k as a new graduate, then you need to learn to budget. (That's >20% more than we pay our new graduates in a private sector multinational).

Excellent, let's hope the union power is diminished - again. Just a shame nobody has the balls of Thatcher to put the likes of militant Lynch back in his place.

Who are you talking to? As a household in the top percentage of earners I think we more than pay our tax burden thank you. Junior doctors, nurses, ECTs and skilled junior civil servants are struggling to heat, eat and even get to work that’s the whole problem. Which is why there is such a crisis in the public sector because these people are leaving as they can’t afford to stay.

This is probably going to blow your mind here. My husband earns £££££££ all from that lovely private money. No cuts there. 20% bonus 20% pay rise. After he walked out of the public sector. I am public sector worker who can see the real life struggles of people whose husband doesn’t earn 6 figure salary plus bonus. If he told me he “paid my wages” he’d get short sharp but the he’s not that simplistic.

Lower ranking, skilled public sector workers literally cannot afford to get to work. That’s the issue.

@fromdownwest

Sorry, you don't use any public services?!

You dont benefit from police, courts, justice system? Education system? Youve used and will use private health care your whole life? Dont use any council services? No street lights or bin emptying? Nothing?

Its been explained countless times on this thread why some junior doctors feel they deserve better pay but I'll go over it again

They have been facing worsening conditions for about a decade. The nhs is losing staff at a horrendous rate leaving those still in the nhs with being critically over worked.

On a good day the job involves massive amounts of stress. It's highly academic and professional. Literal life and death.

And you think they should do it for 30k and a pension and shut up moaning because some private sector workers have it tough too?

You think that increasing pay in order to recruit and retain staff in the nhs is not ensuring that it is an evolving entity keeping up to date with the ever changing world we live in? You see that as a waste of money?!

As a new teacher, your salary will be between £25,714 and £32,157, - Are there really?

If you can not survive on this income, then it is you budgeting, lifestlye or living that is the issue. I am not saying it is a fortune, but to lump these in with people who literally can not afford to feed their children or themselves, is disingenuous

@Callingoccupants

Yeah I do have a basic grasp of economics.

Unlike the tories, who have gotten us into this mess.