Would I be rude to say to manager “just give me a straight answer?”

[Hearfreedomcalling]

I’ve posted before but it’s got worse and I find myself finding it hard to sleep now. I’ve been in my new job a couple of months now and it’s the kind of work where each project I’m on can be completely different. It’s also a new career and one I’ve no experience in.

I’ll come across something I’ve never ever done before and done as much as I can on it independently before I say to my manager can you guide me with next steps. But instead of telling me he will say “what do you think?” - and I have no clue because I’ve done what I can (I’d never ask without at least attempting to do something) and he still won’t give me a straight answer. I get a politician answer where I’m still so confused at what I’m doing.

I’ve been in tears at work over this (privately in the bathroom). The work is piling up, I have multiple people asking me to do things I have no idea how to do.

How do I say - please just give me a straight answer because I’m at the point of walking out.

I think you need to thank your manager for taking a respectful coaching approach but that this is an area where you lack specific skills/knowledge to do the task and therefore a more directive approach is appropriate. It is inappropriate to coach someone to do something for which they lack skills or knowledge. Be prepared to be challenged, however, if there is an expectation that you already have this skill/knowledge.

But your experience when you raised this with HR before was just the offer to raise a grievance. I said on one of the other threads, that I would advise you to go back to HR and say that a grievance won’t address your immediate training need / change in approach to training need.

So whilst I agree with @girlmom21 that decent company will look at how you can be supported to competence, I think you need to stay alert to the possibility that this is not that decent company.

If all you get is “well you could raise a grievance” tomorrow, then pass on the work you haven’t completed to your line manager with a simple, “I can’t do the next part of this” email, whilst you apply elsewhere.

Sometimes we end up in the wrong job or the wrong company - and the best (even only) action is to leave. Your health is more important. Good luck tomorrow!

Telling them this is a far more constructive way forward. This is something they need to hear. Tell them you would like to discuss what support can be given to help you perform your role. Be ready to talk about what works and what doesn’t.

Is there any coaching available or training you could ask for.

honestly- I am wondering what is going on here - understandably we have your side of the story but from responses you have given I do wonder if you are constructively reflecting on answers given at work. Your responses here seem to be picking up on things in a way that won’t help you to progress. Why the distinction between manager and people manager? He’s your manager Sonora irrelevant.

how often are you asking for advice? I have managed people who were constantly asking and should have known the basics a lot better than they claimed but did not want the responsibility (despite being paid for it!)

have you asked for an appraisal from your manager? What’s the feedback like on the completed work? Have you stated to your manager that you do feel like walking out? Be honest with yourself( not necessarily the internet) are you actually in the right job or have you overstretched here?

@Testina I hadn't seen any previous threads but I don't think this is an issue that should ever have been raised with HR, to be fair. They'd surely assume that it had already been raised with management and nothing had changed.

Where is your induction plan, probation plan/kpis? Can't you refer to this and point out the elements you haven't had full training or sufficient input on?
We use the coaching method, which is often pushing the question back. Maybe you need to say to him that you recognise he's trying to coach you to come to the answer yourself, yet being so new in the role, your preferred learning style is to be shown/told how to do it first.
He doesn't seem very capable tbh.
Don't let things like this keep you up at night. It's a job seekers market out there; if the role isn't right for you or you're not a right fit, start looking x

What do you mean why the distinction between manager and people manager? It was asked. It wasn’t in my opening post.

I know you didn’t like me suggesting it made more sense to bump an existing thread. It really wasn’t me trying to tell you what you can and can’t do on an Internet forum.
But you’re getting (great!) suggestions about making your first approach… when I think it might be more useful to get advice on what to do next when you already made an approach that HR didn’t act upon.

this is what I’ve noticed.
you are really defensive - I get the stress of it all, but you are not picking up on any strategies that posters are giving you to help the situation.

If you are this obtuse at work then I have full sympathy for your manager.

anyway good luck tomorrow.

Have you tried answering "what do you think?" as well as you can, even if you don't have a lot of confidence in your answers? Just describe the problem-solving that you did before asking him. For example, "I initially thought of doing ABC, but I researched it online and spoke to stakeholders and found that it would add three months to the project beyond our timeline, unless we had additional programming resources. Then I looked at XYZ, which would be much faster, but has these risks/downsides (list them)..." It may be that you actually CANNOT complete the project successfully within the timeline you've been given and with the resources you have and up to company standards. It would be your job to speak up to your manager if that's the case, but you also have to make the case to him that you've looked at options and don't see a way to do it. He's going to want to see that you've exhausted the resources you have (for example: your team members, past experience, researching online, subject matter experts within the company) before he steps in. Also, he knows you are new to the company and the job so he should be prepared that you need help, but you have to ask him for help in the specific areas you need, not just in general.

I do think for myself. I have projects that come to me that I do as much as I can on. I don’t just get something new and go “no don’t know” - but there really does come a point in projects where I genuinely don’t know what the next steps would be - it’s not from laziness, it’s from sheer inexperience that yeah you know what I would just prefer to be told a straight answer - which I can then apply for the next project.

It’s like teaching a toddler to count, how would they ever know what comes after 7 if you didn’t just say - it’s 8. But by the time they get to 17 then they don’t need to say what comes next because they figured out the sequence.

I’m clearly lacking in intelligence somewhere though because I just can’t fathom how letting someone struggle when they are trying is a way that they would learn.

In my company, if you ended up in a conversation the HR about your training / line manager that resulted in HR telling you that you had the option to raise a grievance, the following would happen…

Your manager (or their manager) would be told that there was an issue.
HR would want to know their view (e.g. if there was a performance issue, or if support was needed in how and when to coach or “train the trainer” type learning).
HR would expect a plan from the manager / their manager on next step.
HR would check in with the employee at a planned meeting.
Even if HR had agreed to not discuss with the manager / their manager for some reason, they get that check in planned.

That’s why I wonder if OP can expect the response of a “decent” company, because it sounds like last time HR shrugged shoulders and said, “well you can raise a grievance?” but didn’t actually act, or help.

Sounds like you're not suited to the job and don't know enough about it to do it efficiently and well. You should know a certain % of your workload of a new job, with a certain amount that's new, but this sounds out of balance.

“I’m clearly lacking in intelligence somewhere though because I just can’t fathom how letting someone struggle when they are trying is a way that they would learn.”

No-one is saying that is a good way to help people learn.
But people are suggesting reasons that it may be happening:

• the manager is covering that they don’t know themselves (you think not, as they do this job at a higher responsibility level)


• they wanted the job themselves (you say not as they’re senior in same role)


• they think they’re coaching and are just shit at it


• they resent that they’re expected to coach you (you’re inexperienced - did they make the hiring decision or have they just been giving you? That wouldn’t be your fault at all, and would absolutely be their failing, but it might explain why they’d take an approach that doesn’t work


• they are bullying arsehole on a power trip and the best option may be to quit or change role


• you have applied for a job that’s not the right fit for you and they’re doing their best but it’s not working (that’s why people have asked about examples) If that is the case, it’s the recruitment process that’s at fault - absolutely not you, but also possibly not him.

Could you give an example of the kind of things you need to work through in your job? Maybe a scenario you’ve already worked through so we could help?

it’s difficult to tell at the moment if your manager genuinely doesn’t know, or if they’re using a Socratic method to encourage you to think for yourself.

It doesn’t sound like the kind of job where there are absolute black and white procedures you need to follow where being taught knowledge would help you get on your way.

Is it possible he’s asking you to think as if you were in charge of the business? Maybe he’s pushing you to think about what you’d do if you had the power to think creatively and make the decisions?

If he is doing that, it might be that he doesn’t realise he’s stretching you to the point of stress. Growth and learning naturally requires you being stretched out of your comfort zone, but the comfortable way to to do that is at a pace that’s right for you and that doesn’t push you so far out of your comfort zone that you’re in a stress zone.

Whatever’s going on, it sounds like an honest conversation with your manager about how you’re feeling would be the best thing to do.

But how would anyone learn any job without training?

I think it’s unfair to say someone is unsuited if they are not given a fair opportunity.

A few years ago one internal person walked out of the job because the training was so bad and like me were getting work thrown at them and not being guided - but that was with a different manager in the team.

This is exactly what I was thinking, and what I'm sure your boss is looking for. Walk him through your thought process and what you've done already, show him why you've crossed them off or they didn't work, then you can work together with him to find a way forward.

If he does your job and is more senior it's unlikely he doesn't know what to do, so either he thinks you (should) know the answer and are not trying hard enough or need some pushing or he doesn't want to tell you.

“But how would anyone learn any job without training?“

By applying what they’ve done or seen in other roles, or thinking aloud and asking if a new idea is possible.

A recent example for me… a supplier of mine could get ingredient A. (thank you Brexit!) I do not work in ingredient supply. I have never been trained on what to do if a supplier can’t get it. In fact, our “rule” is that it’s the supplier problem. But I thought - do use that too? So I reached out to a procurement manager and they says yes. So I asked if we had a system mechanism to supply it? Yes. So I had to ask someone else if we even had some spare. Yes. Then I thought for myself - hmmm, this sounds like something our quality manager should approve. Nobody taught me any of that. That all came from a “what do you think?” conversation in my head. Now the person who had to actually load it into a truck and create an invoice? They could think all they like, but there’s no way to know how to do that without written black and white instructions.

Does that help as an example of task based training versus coaching for ideas? (I was asking myself what do I think as I’m experienced In this role, but a trainee I’d have guided more - but still asked what they thought)

Need an edit button! Supplier didn’t have ingredient, I thought that we might, I wondered if we could sell it to them.

Ok so an example was this

I get contacted from an internal person saying “what’s the update on this” - on a project from a colleague who was signed off and one I’d never been involved in or knew anything about. It was for a completely different type of external client that I’d never dealt with and had no training in.

The internal person also asked about the next steps and as I hadn’t ever done or seen a contract like this, had come in halfway through and had no training or even a brief overview of the process - I asked manager, explained what I’d received and said could we go through the process.

His advice was to ring internal person who was asking me for help and who he said might even be new to the business. Thats not a solution. That’s the blind leading the blind.

It also turns out that this type of client is paid entirely differently to the other route of payment we use (the only one I know and have been shown) and that we always use their terms when contracting (when there’s always a huge demand for contracts to be on our terms). I think things like this just need to be told straight. Because they are so simple but you have no way of finding out unless told to you.

I understand what you’re saying.

In the example I gave it’s sometimes more that I need to know the process though (because every company does things differently even for the same work roles)

I feel I should be able to say - “Hey manager, I’ve had someone approach me about a contract with X that’s half way through to completion as they are not sure what to do next. This is a public body rather than all the private companies I’ve done projects on before and I’ve had no exposure to this before. Could you guide me on the process to make sure I understand what’s expected as it’s the first one I’ve done and coming in halfway through has also made it a bit more complicated”

But the response I get is - call the internal person. The one who evidently also has no clue.

It’s those situations where I’m just lost at what to do next. I mean I can guess what I need to do but how will I learn if I’m wrong or right?

It’s those situations where I’m just lost at what to do next. I mean I can guess what I need to do but how will I learn if I’m wrong or right?

Then when manager asks what you think, why not say, 'Well, I think (don't say guess) I need to do xyz.' And then he will tell you if you're wrong or right.

Yes but he doesn’t do that. I’ve put guesses before him and if right he’ll say but if wrong then I’m required to continue guessing and guessing

You sound a little out of your depth.

Is this a role that you are qualified in (or part qualified)? If so is this the first time your are putting academic qualifications into real scenarios? I noticed you talk about projects, so are you Prince or Agile qualified? I have found that these methods are great for generating paper trails and for delivering tangible things like a new IT system but in reality people label things projects when really their not - they just want to get something done.

I assume from what you’ve said your manager also has a role in delivery and the “management of people/person” is an add on, so whilst you are frustrated perhaps he/she is up against a deadline too?

Rather than say “what should I do”, perhaps it’s more effective to say “someone has approached me about xyz. I’ve checked back on some records for a similar project and am thinking of doing abc, do you think I’m on the right track?”.

In the example you gave about someone contacting you for an update on something you haven’t been involved in, couldn’t you contact the person who did deal with them, and ask them for an update - or again look for a file and see what you can find?

I find in most cases you don’t need to know everything, you need to know the person(s) who knows that particular thing - especially as you are bedding in?

When they employed you, did they know they were getting a newly qualified employee, with less hands on experience? When you have a cup of tea/chat perhaps it’s worth mentioning that “on paper” and in reality are quite different.

Ask your manager if you can join him in meetings as an observer to learn about the environment your operating in. Others who are in similar roles to you - ask if you could shadow them for a few hours.

You might think your manager is being difficult but it could also be that he feels he’s answered questions before. It could also be that he feels (rightly or wrongly) that the time he’s spent “managing” you is time last on his day job, and he’s struggling to make up that time.

Managers are constantly being told to adapt their style for the individual’s they manage (and the good ones do) but that works both ways and perhaps you need to adapt a little too.

How long have you been in the role? I think it takes a good six months to feel settled.

Apologies if not answering everything and miss parts.

I don’t work in pricing, it’s a very small admin part of my job to give my approval. But I don’t process payments or work in accounts.

I did say the person who worked on the project was signed off and whilst having their private number I’m not going to contact them whilst they are in recovery.

There were no similar projects/contracts for me to look back on. So whilst your example is good it sadly wouldn’t be applicable in my line of work.

I have qualifications but not in this role. They are aware of this.