To think wealthy people will leave Scotland?

[Juniperberries25]

..if the YES side win a referendum? Surely a lot of successful businesses and people who are wealthy/ comfortable/ have paid into a pension will not want to risk all their assets becoming worthless? Or am I missing something? Higher taxes, unknown currency, economic uncertainty, hard border, national security concerns etc

It would cost BILLIONS to set up new Government bodies (eg DVLA, Passport office, MI5, MI6, Amy Navy, RAF to name a few) so surely taxes will be much, much higher than rest of the UK?

Just to clarify I am NOT a fan of Boris but surely he will be long gone by the time Scotland actually became independent after YES vote (probably at least 10 years, just look at the BREXIT timeline).

Please don't flame me, I am just wondering what people think as I genuinely don't get how the benefits outweigh the risks.

It's quite hard to run a country with a fixed budget and no wiggle room. Maybe if we had full fiscal autonomy and the usual economic levers available to a government, instead of being treated as
just another government department like BEIS or DEFRA, we'd perform more to your expectations in those area. Although, given how poorly the tories are performing with those powers in England it's certainly not a given.

I think the furlough saga really hit home with just how little benefit being in this union is for Scotland. We took a different route to England and when it became apparent that we wouldn't be ready to re-open at the end of the first proper lookdown asked the UK exchequer/treasury to provided funding to extend in, which was promptly denied. Only when the English realised they too would need to extend furlough wad any further funding approved.

And that's what really sticks in my craw. The United Kindom is meant to be an equal union, this should mean Scotland, England, Northern Ireland and Wales get equal benefit of the economic powers of the UK government. Yet we don't, England have essentially taken sole control of those powers and use them for their benefit alone.

The simple fact that the UK government has to give us permission to hold a vote on out right to self determination shows this union for exactly what it is, English control of the three other nations.

If independence doesn't come to pass, or is denier, then the only other fair solution is for a devolved parliament to be established in England. Maybe then we'll get a bit more equality from the union.

Scotland surrendered sovereignty in the 1707 Act of Union with England after it went bankrupt.There is an article in The Scotsman today ("I want to break free") in which it claims that Sccotland will go bankrupt again if there it gains independence. Make of this what you will.......

Personally, I found the Small Business Bonus Scheme to be very beneficial as it removed my old business from paying rates. I also benefited greatly from the part-time fee grant from SAAS, which allowed me to study for a degree and change career into something I love.

Elswhere we have the best performing core A&E services, with 90.2% of patients being seen in <4hours compared to 71.3% in England and outperform England in productivity (10.3% increase compared to 2.9% for the rest of the UK).

As well as:
Free dental care for those u26
Free prescriptions
Free eye tests
The Scottish Child Payment
Free period products
Free tuition
Free personal and nursing care to everyone who needs it regardless of age.
1140 hours of free child care (not sure how that compares for England?)
Free bus travel for u22s, o60s and people with disabilities.
Highest no. of GPs per capita in the UK (whether that service works is another matter).
They were the first government in the world to declare a climate emergency (good to me, others may disagree)
Planted 22 million trees and restored 25,000 hectares of peat land (another positive for me personally)
Highest nursing bursary in the UK.
School
16,400 new council homes and an end to right to buy which saved an estimated 15,000 more from being removed from stock.
The domestic abuse act which makes psychological and controlling behaviour a crime.
Mitigated the bedroom tax

I'm sure there's more but that's all that comes to mind just now and that's all despite being hamstrung by the way our finances are controlled by the UK government.

@Villagewaspbyke

Just because you have not experienced it (I am glad you haven’t) does not mean it does not exist. Denying it makes you part of the problem.

Scottish people on the whole are very tolerant and multi cultural but the “anti English” is rife. I have seen it with my own eyes. I’m not talking a bit of cheeky banter about accents or football. I mean people getting harassed at work, someone else getting screamed at in a park - being called an English wanker. There are places where I am from I would never take my husband or children because of their accents. Am I a liar too?
I feel like the SNP perpetuate this way of thinking and it’s sad. Anti SNP is not anti Scotland. This bid for a new referendum is going to flame the hate. So we won’t be returning any time soon.
For reference I don’t care if Scotland stays in the union or goes independent. I want what’s best for Scotland but it’s hard to figure that out with all the lies and bullshit spouted.

But with all of that free stuff, the extra GPs, the lower waiting times in a&e compared to England, why are some of our patients still being sent to England for treatment because we can't handle it up here? Why are our waiting times for surgery so out of control, and that was the case before COVID?

Travel services are being reduced for trains, only a matter of time before it's buses too. Why are so many families struggling on private rent because the council can't offer them a home if there a

Stupid thing put my post up before I finished.

Why are so many families struggling on private rent because the council can't offer them a home if there are so many homes being built?

I’m a medium- high earner based in Scotland. I don’t have a strong view on independence and will stay if it’s a Yes. Mostly because of the irreparable harm done to UK governance in the last five years that will outlive Boris Johnson, and also because it’s a really fantastic country with great spirit. The UK is a catastrophic mess - socially, economically and politically. It’s important for nations to stand for something meaningful and worthwhile. There’s a social cost to the loss of basic decency and integrity in the UK that is far greater than the hollow benefits of a slightly better tax rate. And money really isn’t everything for authentic quality of life. This is what people get so wrong and is the root of a lot of misery and wasted lives. Everyone has to make choices and take action that’s right for them, including leaving if there’s a Yes to independence and that doesn’t feel right for their life. If it is a Yes, I’ll probably be open minded because Scottish people certainly have the grit and nous for success.

Not sure if I'm considered "wealthy" or not, but I earn a lot more than the average wage and am a higher rate tax payer.

I was a hard no in 2014, although I'm not a "unionist". I will always vote for what I think is best for me and my family. I thought the white paper was written on the back of a fag packet.

I don't like the SNP, nor a lot of their policies. I think most yes voters are in a cult. And I think there are so many unanswered questions about currency border etc.

And yet, I'll almost certainly vote yes in a future indyref. Why? Because the UK is completely broken politically and the UK I wanted to be a part of doesn't exist anymore. It's a complete nightmare of a union now in my opinion. The fact that so many people keep voting for the moral equivalence of serial killers is genuinely beyond me. And the Ireland border issue is like a slow moving car crash that so many people don't understand the implications of. They will, in time, when it's too late.

So I am now at the stage of thinking I just don't care about the practicalities anymore. I'm sure it will work out eventually, and even if we hit rock bottom, we are heading back up to a much, MUCH better country. The UK/England is heading down, down, down with no real chance of changing. Scotland might not rejoin the EU right away, but it WILL rejoin. The UK won't.

Basically nothing can be as bad as where the UK is heading, and so for that, I'm grateful to have another choice.

Oh and the childcare one is up to 1140. Most people don't get anywhere near that. And some kids in England get that amount too, equivalent of 30 hours a week, but again it's a minority. It's a shiny thing to throw

Scotland multicultural?!!

😂

The group (also referred to as African-Scottish, Afro-Scottish, or Black Scottish) represent approximately 0.7 percent of the total population of Scotland.

Is it? This is definitely not my experience. I have no opinion either way on independence but I’ve found the Scots very friendly and welcoming whether it be at work, in my village or in Glasgow. Others who are not Scottish but living here that I talk too at work or locally feel the same. I’ve never yet met an unfriendly Scot in fact when I go back to England I wonder what’s wrong with everyone they seem so miserable.

I’ve never yet met an unfriendly Scot

😂

oh don’t be daft.

I get what you are saying - and we seriously lack leaders - of any persuasion, and as public life is so fraught, dangerous, unpleasant I'm not sure when we will see some. However I'm mid 60s and have seen a lot of 'crises' which we have come out of and I think British people, once they stop being angry and complaining (I'm not saying this isn't justified) have great entrepreneurship skills and are pretty resourceful and, now we have no one else to blame for problems, it's up to us to get on with it. And I believe we will.
In fact in recent years everyone has been beating each other up on social media and now there really are serious problems that will be toned down and attention given to a better future for individuals which will lead to a better future for the country.

I believe on the whole, Scotland is a less rascist or anti English place than what some folk would have you believe. Yes there will always be a few sad individuals who shout anti-whatever abuse but you get them anywhere. And for those who have experienced such vibes I apologise on behalf of the uneducated. For those who judge the population of an entire country based on a one or two negative experiences, we’ll that’s a bit rascist is it not?
You must be hanging with the wrong people. ‘Mon up, I’ll put the kettle on and we’ll put the world to rights. Once your here you’re one of us. See Syrian refugees on Isle of Bute for proof - their cafe and cakes are just a joy!

Im not being daft thank you. I walk my dog round my village everyone I meet wants to stop and talk to you, people wave from their cars/windows. My colleagues are all very friendly, I work in a variety of depts and I find it the same where ever I go. I walk down the street in Glasgow catch someone’s eye they’ll nearly always say “hello”, staff in shops restaurants hotels again very friendly often keen to chat. Ive lived in England for 50+ years in both rural and urban environments and I can tell you the Scots are significantly more friendly. Ive never encountered any anti English sentiment. But when I go back to England I hear quite a lot of unfair stereotypical generalisations about the Scots!! And as I said up thread when I talk to other English living here they frequently say the same.

So to be clear

you have never ever NEVER met a single unfriendly Scot?

And you live and work in Scotland

I had a long conversation on a London to Edinburgh train journey with a Scottish woman who indicated that she was involved in future planning for the Scottish government but wouldn't say more. She talked at length about climate change and the opening up of the Northwest-east passage as a fast and effective round the world route for shipping. She seemed to think that the opportunities for Scotland to develop a container port/ ports along its north coast would be a big part in Scotland's future. I have no idea how viable it is or what advantages it would offer — but if the Atlantic conveyor goes, the ice will return and that option will be off the table.

There are no free prescriptions , you and I pay for them in our taxes, nothing is really free.

And the Greens don’t want anyone to burn peat for much longer.
That list is just smoke & mirrors from SNP/Greens

@awaynboilyurheid I think you are correct about the SNP record on education, it’s not good- the figures back this up, they appear underspend on education compared with other parts of the UK, and they underperform in English and maths on international measures when compared to England, and other countries.

You are incorrect about NHS Scotland when you compare their record to NHS England, it’s better resourced, it runs better and the satisfaction rating from patients is higher than in England Article on this here. Now most healthcare systems are pretty much on their knees since the pandemic, perhaps especially in the UK, but there is no evidence an SNP government has done worse than Westminster, they appear to be doing much better overall especially when you look at the long term trends.

Policing- saying they have made a mess of policing is incorrect if we go by crime rate, Scotland has a far lower crime rate overall than either England or Wales. There may be other features of policing that you think could be proved but crime rate has to be up there in terms of how we judge a policing and justice system.

In terms of other blunders and missteps (E.g. ferries etc) I’ve no doubt you are right on this, but a list of missteps of this type could be made about almost any government at any given time. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be held responsible, but if we compare this with the missteps of Westminster it does feel like small potatoes no? That’s partially a scale thing, but Westminster have massively mismanaged so much more throughout the pandemic, it would make your eyes water. The children’s hospital failure/overspend is terrible, but that story could be written about any number of countries in Europe, for some reason there’s something about new hospitals that means they go way over budget, take way longer than scheduled and often have some crazy flaw like not enough parking or no proper transport links. Doesn’t mean it’s okay, but it’s not evidence of a government particularly under performing compared to other governments.

Westminster however- they are literally planning to burn 4 billion pounds worth of unusable PPE, to generate energy U.K. plans to burn billions in wasted COVID-19 pandemic protective gear- LA times and by some estimations Westminster have squandered a further 11 billion on finance management decisions UK think-tank says Sunak has cost taxpayers 11 billion pounds on rate hit, there are also the Covid fraud estimates, hard to get a solid grasp on how much that was worth but the smallest number I’ve seen is 5 billion Covid fraud costs article.

Has this insane level of mismanagement had an impact on the economy? Well it looks possible doesn’t it- OECD are estimating a 0% growth rate in 2023 making it the slowest growing economy among developed countries UK to see slowest growth of developed countries, says OECD

Scotland or the SNP are not perfect and should be held accountable for the things they get wrong, but the idea that they are especially unsuccessful is just not borne out by the facts (that I can see) especially when compared to the Westminster government. Scotland lags in some areas, it still has a lower life expectancy which has persisted for decades, but quality of life compared to the UK is good- do the SNP government deserve no credit for that? Even when Westminster is failing to deliver on the same measures? Quality of Life Uk 2017
Maybe NS is terrifyingly power hungry as you say- but she seems to be quite good with power, as an outsider she is decidedly less embarrassing that Johnson and outperforms on most measures when compared to leadership in Westminster.

I wonder if the anti English thing is compounded by sex. I've never had an issue despite working for the then Department of Social Security in Dundee and then working for a LA. Most of the men I've encountered who sound English have reported issues.