To think wealthy people will leave Scotland?

[Juniperberries25]

..if the YES side win a referendum? Surely a lot of successful businesses and people who are wealthy/ comfortable/ have paid into a pension will not want to risk all their assets becoming worthless? Or am I missing something? Higher taxes, unknown currency, economic uncertainty, hard border, national security concerns etc

It would cost BILLIONS to set up new Government bodies (eg DVLA, Passport office, MI5, MI6, Amy Navy, RAF to name a few) so surely taxes will be much, much higher than rest of the UK?

Just to clarify I am NOT a fan of Boris but surely he will be long gone by the time Scotland actually became independent after YES vote (probably at least 10 years, just look at the BREXIT timeline).

Please don't flame me, I am just wondering what people think as I genuinely don't get how the benefits outweigh the risks.

No, independence is normal. The status quo.

Leaving the European Union was not.

cannot think of a single area of public services in which the SNP has excelled to date - educational attainment is reducing, the NHS is crumbling, transport is appalling and these are all things within their gift to manage. It's very easy to blame 'Westminster'.
Add to that our internationally renowned achievements in drug and alcohol deaths. The snp have had yeeeaaaaarrrs to get a grip of this.
Truly bad - oh but who cares - we love Nicola. I hate Boris but the SNP record is worse.
It seems windfarms are going to cover all our debts. But yes occasionally we do manage to cover our power needs but I bet it's not when it's -3C and December.
I'm past caring - pensioner, savings secure. My 2 DC are in the SE, other Dc heading there soon ( nicer weather).

What I would want to know is how much must the winning vote be - one vote more than the other side ( that can't really happen as we've had the one referendum of a life time and that's being ignored). So say independence needs 10% more than not and only gets 9 - then what?

That's not how territorial water borders work.

I'm Scottish and agree - witnessed it multiple times, particularly xenophobia against white people I know who aren't Scottish, when I was with them. The SNP do not seem to have a handle on reducing it though and fundamentally can't unless they get what they want, by which time things will definitely not be better.

However, there actually isn't anywhere where racists and xenophobes don't reside. And the good thing about Scotland is that there are also lots of lovely people there too.

@Teach12 it’s not the “status quo” to leave any union.

Staying is by definition the status quo.

And we have been in the union with everyone for a lot longer than we were in the EU.

That’s good, my friend has been advised she has. a 7 year wait for her operation in Scotland, by which time the joint will be unsalvageable.
She’s going private.

It’s being over-fond of the heroin that’s the problem, but not surprising that you blame the English for your own home-grown problems.

As a very dear Scots friend used to lament to me, how can a country have ended up defining itself purely on what it’s not?

Rapidly devaluing groats? eh? If your dh cant do his job in Scotland surely he already lives elsewhere?

I've worked in international finance. Navigating different regulatory regimes and legal systems is something many in the city of London are very very used to. Brexit was a huge shock to the market but at the moment few have relocated.

Scotland always had a separate legal system and its likely that any regulatory system will be equivalent even if Scotland rejoins the EU.

I think its important to have a rational and factual discussion and not spout nonsense. Lots of small independent countries exist with law and regulation and mortgages. The UK is not the only country in the world.

You ever heard the phrase economies of scale?

Many shared resources will need to be duplicated. Servers, it admin systems, hr services Anything that is centralised and shared. It's not going to be the simple, we just keep the bits that are in Scotland that many seem to think.

Contracts will have to be renegotiated. Legal bills will be huge.

Costs of doing these things will run into hundreds of millions. Now multiply that by each and every civil service function that exists. Money that could be better spent elsewhere. What a waste it would be.

What I would want to know is how much must the winning vote be - one vote more than the other side ( that can't really happen as we've had the one referendum of a life time and that's being ignored). So say independence needs 10% more than not and only gets 9 - then what

I agree. And what if most regions of Scotland vote no but the a handful of densely populated areas take us 1% over into independence?

A union which requires one country to seek the permission of another country to hold a referendum to leave is not a union of equals, it’s an abusive relationship.
imagine this was a thread about a woman who wanted to leave her husband and he wouldn’t let her, we would all be advising her to ltb as fast as she can

I am Scottish, live back in Scotland now after 30 years working in London.
I would say many of our friends are having the same discussion.

The current UK government have set a precedent, through Brexit, covid and beyond of mistruths, inconsistencies, bluster and fiscal imprudence. There was no money tree, there was austerity, then money is magically found, the £350m brexit NHS bus that never was, the flip flop policies, , the corrupt PPI contracts etc etc. I mention this as any independence campaign is at risk of succeeding simply through lack of trust, rhetoric fatigue and anger at Boris, regardless of true merit.

I have huge respect for how Nicola Sturgeon has conducted herself throughout covid. However I have yet to see a robust financial case for independence. I worry that any campaign will go down the route of the Brexit 'lie and wing it' approach......simplistic soundbites and nonsense and political in-fighting. For the Unionist Tories to lose Scotland would be unimaginable and I can well imagine the media coverage will descend into dirty fighting pretty quickly. And the reality is that so many people will feel they have nothing or very little to lose that they will vote for change accordingly, with some sentimental idea that their vote will benefit the next generations.

For those that realise the money has to come from somewhere, there will be sharper concern and the SNP will have to work hard to demonstrate the books can balance. But there will also be reasonable support amongst the passionate Scots intelligentsia for autonomy and self-government as a credible alternative to the current Westminster shit-show. The credibility of the UK Labour party is fairly critical in this regard, the need for a strong left wing pro-unionist opposition is desperate. As is the warmth of the noise from the EU, which will find it hard not to get embroiled.

Regardless, it is hard to imagine hard facts, truth and detail will win the day in the current climate.

Personally, I loathe what the UK is becoming (or feels like its becoming), and absolutely feel like running away for the first time in my life. But thats not about financial impacts or to escape taxation, its about what we stand for. And living somewhere where common decency and honesty is in greater supply.

In reality we are retired, and the vote we give will impact the next generation far more. I like to think we will choose wisely, but I fear honest information and detail will be hard to come by.

The ignorance of the political situation in Scotland from people who don’t actually live here is quite amusing

I lived in a country outside the EU very near a border. There were agreements with the other country. These are common in many countries on different continents.
People always look at the EU and not what happens elsewhere.

No, it's a relationship which the majority continue to say they are happy to be part of.

It’s how it generally works for oil rights. Given that much comes ashore in the Shetland’s though and they will vote remain it’s a moot point.

Or will their right to self-determination somehow not count?

Lol. Dont be ridiculous. Scotland is a country of 5 million people. There are certainly sufficient economies of scale for an efficient administrative system. Do you think that the cost of the DVLA equivalent in Ireland or Denmark is overwhelming?

Scotland is also generally a cheaper place to run services than many parts of England especially the south east. The administration of many services is already devolved. Also some services for the whole of the UK are based in Scotland.

There would be a transition period for some matters but no reason to think that any of this would mean more taxes. In fact, as a smaller country, Scotland could well spend much less on defence.

Jeez, it’s hopeless.

Why would she have to give up Balmoral?

1. She owns it.
2. She's Queen of Scots. She would be Queen of Scots even if there had been no act of Union (barring revolutions).
3. 'm no royalist but i don't think even the most dogged Indy supporter is saying "Off with their heads" immediately after independence. Ten years down the line might be another matter.

Denmark / Finland / Norway / Ireland all have a similar population to Scotland, they do just fine as will Scotland should it come to that.

I don't think anyone would get rid of the Queen. But an independent Scotland could decide if it wants Charles as its King.
Scotland could just join the Commonwealth as Australia and other countries did if it wants to keep the Royals.

I've met people from France who got surgery in Spain, Portuguese who got treatment for leukemia in the UK, an Italian who went to Portugal, several from Portugal who went to Spain (back in the day for transplants). I'm doing an MRI on my foot and I've decided, depending on what result is, if I need surgery I'm going to be looking at all my options.
It's interesting how Brits never knew they could do the same -I'm not talking about that card you got before going on holiday- I mean getting treatment in the EU if it's for sth serious and you wouldn't be able to get treated during the foreseeable future in your own country.

Interesting. Are you aware that Ms. Sturgeon failed as a lawyer? You might want to have a read of this. Author is a supporter of Independence.
grousebeater.wordpress.com/2021/05/21/sturgeons-skeleton/

@Villagewaspbyke 🙈🙈🙈nice demonstration of my earlier point there. Well done.

I don’t doubt that’s true, but as a non-English non-Scottish person who has lived in both England and Scotland (Scotland first, then England) I was also pretty taken aback by the way otherwise lovely English people talk about the Scottish to me. It was a lot of them too, people who I know would never say anything disparaging about my ethnicity for example but felt perfectly comfortable laughing/sneering at Scottish culture, Scottish accent etc, suggesting it’s a basket case and really badly led (which having lived in both countries Scotland is not without its flaws but overall was much better led than England imho- while I was there) but also there was this weird conflating of people voting for the SNP in Scotland with the bloody BNP in England! Even if you hate the SNP that’s a pretty unfair and crazy comparison. It genuinely surprised me because I know the people I spoke with really wouldn’t dream of talking like that about other countries/ethnicities.

There was a pretty patronising tone about the idea of them ruling themselves too, I could totally understand English people being sentimental about the union and wanting to keep Scotland in the fold but acting like they’d ruin the country if they were in charge was off to say the least. Not sure why they assumed I’d be onside, but given I had lived in Scotland they were maybe pretty sure they were right about all this stuff and I would recognise it? Who knows! But I don’t think any country has the monopoly on senseless bigotry.